Confidence in a Theo Epstein deal has waned ever-so-slightly as the Chicago Cubs and Boston Red Sox were unable to reach an agreement on compensation yesterday. I’m not panicking yet, but I’m a little nervous. I’m a Cubs fan, after all.
- Last night, WEEI – who has been ahead of everything on this story – reported that yesterday’s compensation talks did not go well, with the Cubs looking to pay only cash for Epstein, and the Red Sox wanting prospects. Many are seizing on this story to raise some fear that things will fall through, but, given Bruce Levine’s report yesterday that the Cubs have a list of prospects they’re considering trading to the Red Sox, it sounds like the talks are still progressing.
- For what it’s worth, I’ve been listening to WEEI all morning, and I’ve not heard them express any particular concern that the Epstein deal will not get done.
- Gordon Edes cites sources who say Epstein has been conducting business as usual in Boston these last few days, still participating in the managerial search, for example. Those sources also say Epstein hasn’t yet told his colleagues that he’s leaving for the Cubs. Shrug. That’s the kind of story that, at first blush, sounds awful and concerning, but let’s step back. How else would this play out? Epstein may have agreed in principle to a deal with the Cubs, but he’s still a Red Sox employee, and, theoretically, things could still fall through with the Cubs during the compensation talks. So, naturally, his instinct would be to keep head down and working, out of an abundance of caution (he is, you’ll remember, an attorney).
- If you’re at all skeptical and cynical, you have to start to wonder why all of the leaks are coming from the Boston side. A cynical reader would figure that the Sawx are trying to manipulate the discussion – perhaps, for example, work Cubs fans up into a frenzy (“OMG! WE’RE GOING TO LOSE THEO! JUST GET IT DONE, TOM!!! GIVE THEM WHAT THEY WANT!!! ROAAAR!!!!”), to pressure Cubs ownership to making a deal on favorable terms to the Red Sox. As their ownership has demonstrated in recent days, they have no problem using the media to nefarious ends.
- The leverage question. Some people, as we have here, say the leverage lies with the Cubs – the Red Sox have all but named Ben Cherington the GM, they’ve trashed their own team, and they’ve started the “we’re ok without Theo” narrative among their fans. Their only option right now to kill the deal is to cut off negotiations with the Cubs, and then pay Theo to sit at home for the 2012 season. Would they really do that, and become the greatest villains in all of sports?
- Others, on the leverage question, say the Red Sox have it. The Cubs clearly are desperate for Theo, and don’t want to have to come to the fans, hat in hand, saying things fell apart at the zero hour.
- Where does the truth lie? As it usually does, somewhere in the middle. I think there is no leverage on either side with respect to employing Epstein, himself. My guess is that all sides recognize he’s coming to the Cubs, and the rest is just posturing for the compensation. In that regard, the Red Sox have no leverage at all, except one thing: Epstein wants to take some Sawx employees with him. I still suspect now what you’ll see is the Cubs sending cash and a couple good prospects for Epstein and a couple of his choice Boston employees (NOT guys like Cherington, mind you – probably lower level staffers we’ve not heard of).
- So, bottom-lining it: how worried am I? Not terribly, but I have a little heartburn. If things fall through at this point, I can assure you it won’t be because the two sides couldn’t agree on compensation. Both sides want to get the deal done, and it will get done. If things fall through, it will instead be because Epstein has had a change of heart (which is hard to predict, not knowing him personally). And, in that case, it will suck, but it’s hard to be angry at the Cubs.
I’m hoping the delay is not due to a request to get Starlin Castro in return.
But if we’re just talking about a couple of minor leaguers…. I don’t get the issue.
Brett–beautiful summary, including the slight heartburn. I have a feeling the deal will get done today.
^ This – great work, as always. I agree that the only thing de-railing this deal at this point is Theo himself having a change of heart. After the original euphoria, I’m now back to cautiously optimistic. Even if this falls through, it won’t bother me because I still believe that there are a number of candidates qualified to lead the Cubs.
“They’re only option right now to kill the deal is to cut off negotiations with the Cubs, ”
The way I read that, it looks like the Red Sox themselves are the only option to kill the deal.
Oh my. And that’s one of my few, unforgivable grammatical mistakes. I typed too fast and edited too thinly, I suppose. Apologies.
Just have to give you a hard time.
My gut tells me the majority of this is ego driven by the Red Sawx top brass, which would explain why all the leaks come out of Boston. Ricketts is one tight-lipped son of a gun, and the Boston boys leak like an old rowboat.
There is no way Starlin goes anywhere…that’s been a Boston pipedream from Day 1, him or Garza and it ain’t happening….
Even if the Cubs wanted it to happen, I don’t see MLB approving that deal.
Yeah, I’m thinking along the same lines. It’s a lot of posturing and the compensation issue has more to do with the others Epstein might want to take with him. If it’s just Epstein leaving, I think the Sox take cash from the Cubs and be done with it. If he wants to raid their front office, they’re not going to simply take cash in return.
Any legal talent around here? How likely is it that Theo’s contract allows him to be paid to sit? It seems as unlikely to me as the Cubs being able to send a veteran to the minors to free up a roster spot.
Nearly 100%.
You think it’s nearly 100% likely that the contract allows the Red Sox to pay Theo to sit at home? I don’t. There’s more than money at stake. I’d wager that the contract has a buyout in it but that it allows him to continue to advance his career if the Red Sox no longer require him to perform the services or which he was contracted.
Yep. And what the contract “allows” the Red Sox to do, and what it binds them to do are two different things.
And I agree that there is more than money at stake: There’s having a disgruntled GM on your hands.
Unless his contract has some clause that says he can’t be reassigned without his consent (unlikely – it ain’t a union job, like the players), I’m sure they could pay him $3 million to deliver the mail.
Theo’d be an idiot (and a lousy lawyer) to have signed a contract that didn’t protect his professional advancement. Unions negotiate that sort of thing in a CBA but that doesn’t mean an individual can’t negotiate it for himself.
You’re right. But unless that kind of term is relatively standard in executive contracts (and it totally could be), it’s hard to think of that stuff out of whole cloth – and this is coming from a former lawyer (few will admit that to you). I suppose, given the nature of his job (below Lucchino, and with in-fighting), protecting his advancement (or at least non-demotion) probably would have been something that came up. You might be right on this, straw.
It just doesn’t seem like a stretch to me that a GM…any GM, would have a contract that establishes that if you don’t want him to be the GM anymore, you have to buy him out and let him go…that you can’t just keep him off the market by paying him and giving him a box of paper clips to play with. The continuity of a GM’s authority and prestige have value.
I think you do have a point – it could be wording as broad as the contract having to be bought out if GM (or greater) duties are no longer assigned or it could be specific in that if he is fired he has a buyout…hopefully it is the former so they can’t just pigeon-hole him for the next year in the mailroom
My guess is that the contract is for Theo to be a GM (whatever label the Sox might put on that role)… not just an employee of the Red Sox. If he shows up willing and able to perform the duties of a GM, then they have to pay him.
Having to pay him isn’t so much the issue as having to let him do the actual functions of the GM. What’s stopping them from saying, “yup, you’re the GM … but we’re going to head out to a meeting with Ben. Enjoy your office. The window shades roll up and down!”
I agree. It’s not good for either party if the other side is unhappy.
That said, there would be arguments to be made along the lines of constructive termination, etc. But in the real world, only vindictive crazies want litigation.
Again, if the Red Sox insist on being dicks about it, the easiest thing to do probably is to pay him to do nothing. That’s if they wanted to insist upon being dicks. That other crap is inviting litigation.
On the compensation question…it puts Theo in a very odd position. He’s still an employee of the Sox and has to due diligence in that capacity. He WANTS to be an employee of the Cubs and has the interests of the organization that he wants to be running in mind? Who’s side is he on in the negotiation? Is he a participant in the negotiation? If not, who’s doing it, Cherington? And doesn’t that strengthen the Cubs’ hand…if Theo is already being supplanted? It’s rather ironic.
Seems like Theo’s natural tendency would be to protect the Cubs’ farm system, because he’ll be inheriting it. That’s probably why he’s not directly involved. Still, his unique position almost makes him a nice mediator – allowing for each side to get something fair.
Problem is, if the big sticking point is who Theo wants to take with him, then he’s definitely completely on the Cubs’ side.
The fact that they are far apart is a non-starter for me. It is good that the Cubs weren’t willing to drop trou on day 1 and right now I am 60% certain that this deal gets done every time.
Just give them Vitters and be done with that. He’s not going to be anything anyways.
Which is why the Sox probably aren’t intested in him either.
The Cubs would not offer Vitters. He has been playing pretty well lately and is still young, just turned 22 and was getiing really hot at AA. At this point, I would guess he would be with the Cubs at sometime during 2013, at 23 years old.
Henry’s got balls, I’ll give him that. When he wanted Beane, the Red Sox were willing to give up Youkiliis, who, at that time, was 2 years away from the Majors and a marginal prospect, at best. Now, for Epstein, the Red Sox want more than a marginal prospect? Good luck.
I heard the main problem with negotiations was when Tom took out his prospect list and it read something like this:
Eggs
Milk
Chips
Soda
Bread
Zookeeper on Blue Ray
Still batting 1.000 on comments that are intended to produce a chuckle.
He is good isn’t he …
I’d bet he has nothing to do with the negotiations it was reported it was between Randy Bush and Cherington/Lucky Larry Luccino the prick…I remember when the Cubs hired Andy MacMuffin from the Twins, they gave up compensation for him, AFTER the deal was announced..Later that month, the Cubs hired away Jim Riggleman from the Padres and gave them compensation AFTER the deal was done…When Dallas Green was hired I was like 10 years old so i’m not 100% sure on this but I don’t think the Cubs gave up any compensation and Dallas took lots of people with him: Lee Elia, John Vukovich, Gordon Goldsberry, Hugh Alexander etc, etc, etc..This is rotten and hopefully it doesn’t drag on too much longer.
It’s as good as done. If the Red Sox back out now then they will be stuck with a pissed off GM who will be in the last year of his contract. Not to mention the fact the Red Sox have named Ben Cherington as Theo’s successor. The Red Sox dropped the ball on these negotiations when they allowed Theo to take the Cubs job, when they did that they lost all leverage, and the Cubs gained it. Like I said what are they going to do, hold onto a lame duck Theo Epstein, lets be real if the Sox back out Theo would probably leave as soon as his contract with the Sox ended at the end of next season. I think the holdup is over who Theo is trying to bring with him, and its completely plausible that the Red Sox are asking for prospects in exchange for other members of their front office.
I echo your last sentence.
This is what I’m thinking …
If this falls through, which I don’t think it will, the Cubs already have a built in reason to save face. Because the Cubs have been so tight lipped and the Sox the titanic for leaks, TR can say they were asking for Castro and Garza. A price no one would pay. What I am saying is, advantage Cubs and good on ya Tom!
How long should it take for Wilkins, Fleita, and Bush to evaluate the list of prospects. It’s not like the are looking at this list of names and talent for the first time. One would hope that these names and talent are discussed in periodic progress reports. We discuss the successes and failures and the Cubs prospects on a daily basis, and it is not our job to do so.
That evaluation will not take long. But the posturing back and forth about them could take awhile. For those saying, “who cares, they’re just minor leaguers, make the deal, etc.,” just because the Cubs *would* trade (for example) Marco Hernandez for Epstein doesn’t mean they *should* trade Marco Hernandez for Epstein if the Sawx are actually willing to accept (for example) Justin Berg. There’s no reason not to negotiate.
I completely agree. I just thought the story I read was making such a big deal about this list when in my mind, it should have been something they already have put together. We should definately negotiate and get the best deal we can.
Isn’t it funny that all of us have waited our entire lifetimes for a WS and now we are getting upset about waiting a couple of days to secure the guy that we hope to bring it to us.
in that Gordon Edes piece he points out that Boston has twice allowed leaving execs to take front office staffers with them
“Josh Byrnes to the Arizona Diamondbacks and Jed Hoyer to the San Diego Padres. In both instances, they were allowed to take two Red Sox staffers with them, one apiece in terms of major staff positions. In 2005, Byrnes took Peter Woodfork, the team’s director of baseball operations, with him to Arizona, along with a highly regarded stats guru named Shiraz Rehman, who had been a Red Sox intern. In 2009, Hoyer was permitted to take scouting director Jason McLeod and Sam Ray”
“Epstein’s inner circle, besides Cherington, includes Mike Hazen, vice president of player development and amateur scouting; scouting director Amiel Sawdaye; Brian O’Halloran, vice president of baseball operations; Allard Baird, vice president of player personnel; Dave Finley, special assistant to the GM; and Craig Shipley, the senior VP of player personnel and international scouting”
Interestingly, when Lucchino came over to Boston from the Padres, I think I read that there were all kinds of restrictions, for example the Sawx couldn’t take anyone from the Padres in the Rule Five draft for a year. I wonder if we’ll see anything zany like that.
so there is a possibility were theo doesn’t come ay all? ):
If he changes his mind at the last minute.
It’s always a possibility, but if he hasn’t burned his bridges in Boston by not going public with a “I’m putting my toe in the water to check the temp” statement he’s standing in a kerosene soaked, covered bridge with a flame thrower in his hands …
Wouldnt have had this mess with Dick Tidrow….I tried to warn you …lets hope it turns out for the best
Dick Tidrow eats airplanes. Raw.
You misspelled “cookies”.
I like cookies, too.
He saves money by making baseballs with his own skin and bats with his own bones
But no one can swing those bats or hit those balls. No one but Dick Tidrow.
Except Chuck Norris, he uses those bones as toothpicks
Okay…I saw side-arming Dick Tidrow play…but where is all of this love coming from?…granted I find it very funny…I just must have missed something
TAFKAPB
Uh, “Chris”… you new around here?
Well, Artist Formely Known as Philoe, Mr. Tidrow has been the troll known as die hard’s number 1 pick for GM (because he’s “tough”) so then Chuck Norris was suggested by me and it’s just taken on a fun life from there.
I’ve come to enjoy die hard’s comments because they are irrational but lead to fun
Whoa, whoa, whoa. I was the first to say Dick Tidrow is the new Chuck Norris. I am insecure and I demand credit.
Brett, start editing die hard’s comments to make them semi-coherent. I imagine if will either confue him greatly, or piss him off.
I come to this website for up to date Cubs news first and foremost. But unedited comments from diehard are a very close second.
Dick Tidrow can stare a curveball straight.
Found this one and a bunch more “Dick Tidrow” baseball facts at http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2781678/70_baseballrelated_chuck_norris_axioms.html
But it’s brought us so much fun, and makes us look so much smarter.
I’m the one who brought Chuck into the equation (but you did connect the dots)! WAIT, I do not fear this new Brett, I feared Duffman but you no longer have any power. Now is the time for the Goats to rise! First BleacherNation then the world!
History can look back and this is where the Goat’s Rise to Power. Baaaaaaaa
I thought “baaaaaaa” was a sheep noise?
Had to post this one as well. Couldn’t help myself.
Rick Ankiel gave up pitching and moved to the outfield just to get further away from Dick Tidrow.
Who do you think is a reasonable proespect(s) to give up for theo?
I think a 5 to 10 prospect in the system is reasonable (a Beliveau/Ha/Rusin type). Hope Cubs could get them to go even lower, though.
we have to stop thinking about what to give up for him…he cant hit, throw, or run….we have to think about what Boston will pay us to assume last yr of his contract cause he was going to be fired anyway…cant anyone but me see this?…yeeesh!!!
Sometimes I sneak a cookie or two before I finish my lunch.
You kidding me…you guys are multiplying now?
I don’t know what I like more, diehards comments, or the follow up cookie comment from TWC.
yeah man, they should give us Ellsbury and Pedroia along with Tom Brady and Rajon Rondo. Thats where negotiations start. I hear ya die hard
I’m crying.
They’re coming out with a fifth installment. “Die Hard and Have a Nice Day” is the title. Or something close.
simple fix, the aforementioned Mr. Richard “Dick” Tidrow as the Gm/ 3rd starter (we have to admit he has lost a little bit with age). One Rocky Cherry as pitching coach, Turk Wendell as team psychologist. And you HAVE to make room for Rod BEck somewhere in the organization. Boom. Done. Simple.
edit: didnt get that this certainly isn’t another die hard/totally missed point….
That Mnookin article says the Red Sox might ask for Jay Jackson and Alberto Cabrera. If that’s the case, do it and move on.
They were just throwing out random names. I don’t put any stock into it in the least (fortunately, or unfortunately).
Yeah, me neither. I just want this to be over, but like I said before, I think that Boston might drag this out to get first crack at managerial candidates.
ESPN now reporting that the hold up is most likely the Red Sox’s demands that no other front office personal be allowed to leave with Theo. I think I read that somewhere on this site yesterday?
I’ve been lurking for awhile and thought I’d say hi to everyone. Personally, I love the updates here regarding the Theo Epstein mini drama. Plus I love a man who uses ‘nefarious’ in a sentence. Grrrrr!
Oh, and Hawkeye, while I do love Hawkeye from MASH I was raised on the Hawks and Cubs!
Nice to have you, Katie. Just don’t go skulking around with nefarious intentions.
AND skulking?! Love that word too! I’m happy to be here…thanks for keeping us up to date! Now I just have to figure out all the cookies jokes!
I’m still working on the cookies, myself. This place has a mind of its own.
That is because they have to be baked at 400 for 17 minutes – not 425 at 15 – much better that way and the cool quip sticks better…
I don’t understand them either, I just try to be one of the cool kids
TWC quit actually answering die hard’s comments and started replying about cookies.
Know how I can tell you posted that from a computer and not a mobile device? You managed to make it say “skulking” and it didn’t autocorrect to “skullfucking.” Or is my phone the only one that does things like that?
I think mine autocorrects in the other direction, which is a pain…
Mine autocorrects in the wrong direction too.
I am picking up on the “interesting” qualities of die hards comments. I doubt I’ll ever be one of the cool kids here but I appreciate the welcome!
Don’t worry, even the cool kids around here are pretty uncool. Just check out some of the stuff on the message boards.
As far as die hard goes, I imagine he comments a lot on YouTube.
Especially on Cookie Monster videos
Trust me we’re not that cool. We’re a bunch of passionate Cub fans who actively check this site like a junkie looking for a fix mixed with an occasional troll who loves cookies
Sad but true: BN is the most visited site on both my laptop and my phone. Somehow its ahead of Facebook. And filthymanongoatonmanonmanonboarfucking.com.
“filthymanongoatonmanonmanonboarfucking.com”, and to think I thought I was the only one who went there!
Haha
speak for yourself, i’m fucking cool man.
:insert quote from adult cartoon or start wars here:
Oh yes, I’m definitely a Cubs junkie. Cubs.com isn’t cutting it and hasn’t really ever cut it for news, to be honest. As for the message board, I haven’t been brave enough to wade in there quite yet.
Oh join us on the dark side that is the BN Message Board
Eeeeek! I did and I even posted. Now if I could figure out how to give myself an avatar via my iPhone I’ll be set.
Can’t do via iPhone got to go to gravatar.com and set up an account
Good to know Michigan Goat! Thank you!
Katie,
Glad to see a new face as well as a fellow Hawkeye/Cubbie. Sorry I hadn’t responded to you earlier as family time takes away from BN time on the weekends. It will be nice to get back to work tomorrow so that I can get my priorities back in line and focus on BN. Again, welcome to this little slice of heaven that Brett has created for us all.
Oh I totally understand! How ’bout those Hawks this weekend?!
Thank you for the welcome. It IS a little slice of heaven.
Hawks looked real good this weekend. Though I love my Cubbies in Chicago, my love does not stray down the road to Northwestern. They have been a thorn in the Hawks side over the past few years and it was nice to take them down.
Most definitely! I kept waiting for the 2nd half choke routine we normally see! I live in Iowa so it Iowa or Iowa State from birth. Still can’t believe they lost to State. Shameful.
I live in Iowa as well. Originally from the eastern part of the state. Loosing to ISU did suck, but at least we will win more games this year. Can’t say I think ISU has another win in them.