Keith Law reports this morning that the two prospects in the Cubs/Reds Sean Marshall/Travis Wood swap are AAA outfielder Dave Sappelt and A-ball second baseman Ronald Torreyes.
If true, like, wow. Neither is a tip top prospect, but they are far, far from filler.
Torreyes, who turned 19 in September, is a small second baseman who put up a very impressive .356/.398/.457 line in A-ball this year. Given that he was just 18 for most of the year, that’s pretty darn impressive. He’s considered a top 15 prospect in the Reds’ system.
Sappelt, 24, has progressed nicely through the Reds’ system, reaching AAA in 2010, and starting there in 2011. He got a cup of coffee with the Reds this year, but didn’t do much with the chance. He’s a center fielder with a career .309/.362/.459 line, and is a top 20ish prospect in the Reds’ system.
In other words, these two are legit prospects. I’m waiting for the official announcement (and to see whether Marshall got an extension as part of the deal), but I’m tentatively very, very happy about this deal.
To the extent it’s relevant to you, Reds fans seem to be pretty irked about giving up so much for Marshall.
Of interest about the prospects: both are positional players. While I caution you against reading too much into the fact that the Cubs didn’t go for pitchers, it does seem like that’s what their preference would have been. A chance these are two kids the Padres were looking at when talking to the Reds about Mat Latos? A chance. That’s all.
We’ll have more on the trade after it’s finalized, and much more on the prospects involved later.
UPDATE: As confirmed by the Cubs’ front office, the deal is Sean Marshall for Travis Wood, Ronald Torreyes and Dave Sappelt. Wood, alone, would have been an acceptable return for Marshall. Two legit prospects, one of whom killed it in A-ball as an 18-year old (and plays good defensive second base), thrown on top? Dude. That’s a hell of a deal. Happy Festivus, indeed.
Could dave replace Soriano if he is traded
Yes. He isn’t a guarantee to stick as a starter, but Sappelt has done enough in the minors that you could comfortably give him a shot with a starting job in CF or LF.
Wait…aren’t we usually on the other side of these kinds of deals?
I like change.
I love the change. Building the team the right way? I’m no longer disappointed that we got Theo instead of Andrew Friedman, because apparently Theo is doing it the way Friedman would have.
I approve that message. Let’s not forget the years when the Jim Henry regime kept flipping marshall from SP to RP back to SP back to RP only to piss off all cubs fans. Hey Jeff smardijja do you remember that?
Hey Jeff Russell … do you remember that?
You think that flip-flopping from bullpen to rotation is done now that Hendry is gone? Seriously doubt that.
Cashner likely back to pen this year to prevent overworking his recently rehabbed arm, and then may find himself in the rotation again (I hope) in 2013 when healthy.
Samardzija likely to be given a shot at the rotation this year after a very successful season in the pen.
Amoo22 you make a great point!!!!
Nice deal. Way to go Theo/Jed!
Torreyes+Sappelt+What? for Rizzo? If Padres are interested in them of course.
Good point, let’s get a deal done with Jed’s old boys and bring Rizzo on over!
we out performed the mike adams return, in my opinion ..3 Top 20 prospects for Marshall
Eh – Erlin and Weiland are probably both going to be better then anything we got for Marshall.
Torreyes could turn into a good player if we can teach him to draw walks and if he learns how to more effectively steal bases, but at 5’9″ 140 (probably fully clothed and soaking wet), he isn’t likely to turn into a star. Of course, people also said that about Dustin Pedroia.
Walks are over-rated if you SO 38 times in 627 AB’s. That means he puts almost EVERYTHING in play. His numbers remind me a bit of the ol’ Cardinal, Willie McGee
Right, but if he’s swinging at everything, then pitchers are going to stop throwing him strikes, especially at the big league level where pitchers know how to pitch and have better control. Walks are good because they help you get on base but they also show that you can be more selective at the plate, which means pitchers have to throw you better pitches to hit.
How does Sappelt compare to CPat at the same age?
They appear similar to me but I can’t locate Corey’s stats from back then.
Patterson had much better power, and was a better base stealer. He also played better defense. However, Sappelt is much better at taking walks and not striking out. Pretty much, totally different players aside from their size.
Patterson had more sustained MLB success at this age.
I don’t think I’d call them similar prospects. Sappelt looks more like a Matt Murton who might be able to play CF.
That could be a good comp – useful, not Corey Patterson potential. Of course, probably not Corey Patterson floor either. Sappelt’s 2011 MLEs suggest he’s a .270/.320/.390 CF. Not bad, not great. He’s a better 4th OF than what we have now.
Well, technically…..we already have one of the best 4th OFs in the game. It just so happens that we’re so bad he’s our starting CF. (Byrd)
Ha
I like Brett’s thinking that this opens the door to trading Byrd. Trade Byrd, give BJax some more time to develop in AAA and then we should be ready to go with the Brett Jackson era, which I’m excited to see begin.
And I vote no to Rizzo for BJax straight up. We need more for that deal to work for me.
Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes
This is the sort of deal I’d watch other teams with brilliant GMs make and I’d get sooo jealous. But here we are.
We just flipped one year of a (very good) relief pitcher for
A 25-year-old starting pitcher with one year of service time, a career 92 FIP- (basically a stathead way of saying his peripherals say he’s an above average pitcher) and no health concerns.
A 24-year-old LFer who is right on the borderline between being a starter and a good 4th outfielder.
A legit 2b prospect who just hit .356 .398 .457 as an 18-year-old in the Midwest League.
I couldn’t possibly be happier with this trade. This is an epic steal. If this is what rebuilding looks like, I’m all aboard.
Me too. Holy cow 2 friggen top 20 prospects for a reliever? This is how you build a foundation. My God where would we be if not for Hendry and all those years of NEVER trading and taking advantage of desperate teams “still in it” at the deadline the way Theo just took advantage of a team willing to overpay for a reliever as they are “all in” for 2012. How great will our farm system be in another couple years if they can keep making moves, even close to this.
Remember when we were all mad that theo and Jed traded Marshall haha now we are all happy
A thought on Sappelt’s inclusion: could be the Cubs genuinely want him. Could be the Padres genuinely want him.
… could also be that the Padres want Brett Jackson, and the Cubs wanted to try and replace him as best they could.
I’d be curious on that… not that the Cubs would view Sappelt as a B-Jax replacement, because he lacks the upside. But, if the Cubs trade B-Jax for Rizzo, I wouldn’t be shocked to see them go all in on Cespedes. I don’t think Cespedes will be ready until at least mid-2012, and probably a better idea just to wait until 2013 (he needs to see some time in the high minors), but Sappelt could be a one year or half year bridge from Byrd to Cespedes (or B-Jax, honestly) if the Cubs find a match for Byrd.
And that’s all I’m saying. Not that Sappelt approaches Jackson. Just that the Cubs figure, if we’re losing Jackson, it can’t hurt to add another AAA, good defensive outfielder. Sappelt seems an odd target otherwise (again, unless the Pads want him).
Sappelt slots comfortably into a reserve outfield spot on the 2012 Cubs. If we want to trade Soriano or Byrd, I’d be comfortable letting him start.
If we were going for it in 2012, I wanted to see Jackson in CF in order to save money for big spending elsewhere.
But since we’re not, Jackson really probably needs more time in AAA. It’d be better for him.
Very good points.
Completely agree on all points.
That’s definitely true. Honestly, I think the guy that Sappelt best replaces is Brandon Guyer. The Cubs now have a young, cost controlled guy who should be a good 4th OF type. You should be able to fill most of your reserves out with players who are cost controlled, and Theo and Jed appear to be moving towards that.
I think Guyer is a much better prospect than Sappelt. Guyer, IMO, still has the potential to be a 20/20 guy in the Majors.
I agree with you that Guyer is better, but disagree that he is “much better” or ever likely to hit 20 HRs in the majors. Guyer is 26 and Sappelt is 25, so I don’t think you’re likely to see much in terms of significant tools improvement from either of them, but instead refinement. Guyer does hit for more power, but he’s never really come close to 20 HRs in AAA, and is a better base stealer, altghough both his total SB numbers and success rate dropped a lot in AAA. Guyer also has struck out more and walked less in his minor league career.
Guyer’s biggest advantage over Sappelt, to me, is his ability to play RF. Guyer is a better player, but they’re both reserve outfielders to me.
Do you mean losing Jackson in the sense that he would be included in a possible trade for Rizzo?
Yes. Just as a possibility.
Many other possibilities, though, obviously – including the flexibility to shop Byrd without having to rush Jackson to the bigs. And, again, it could simply be that the Pads want Sappelt (or that the Cubs really like him).
I would be okay with that scenario if the Cubs got Cepades (sp) to play CF. Otherwise it’s just sorta trading a CF prospect for a 1B prospect. I don’t know if that’s really an upgrade, although the consensus seems as though Rizzo has a higher upside than Jackson.
thats what im thinking, we dont have room for both
or sappelt could be a cheap replacement for when soriano is traded/more likely bought out ..then BJax moves into center after Byrd gets moved at the deadline
Jackson has more upside, but I’d be more comfortable giving Sappelt a starting OF spot in 2012 and seeing what he could do with it.
Thats an interesting thought. I still question B-jax’s ability to hit in the majors. However…I have similar questions about Rizzo. This is one case where I’d actually rather keep Jackson. But by all means…if Sappelt could help net Rizzo, do it. What if the Padres want both of these guys for Rizzo? I’d still do it.
Speaking of Cespedes, I’ve now done a 360, with the Cubs actually going through with the tear down and rebuild thing. By all means, you go all in on Soler and Cespedes. You’ve still got cash, and since you wont be able to put it into the draft…Get. Them. I didn’t want Cespedes before, but now…how can you pass up the upside at this point? And no matter what their future plans, Soler needs to be a Cubs prospect.
i wouldnt mind loosing jackson for anthony rizzo, we could use rizzo more than jackson but imo i think szczur is going to alot better than jackson so y not play sappelt one year and wait for szczur to grab the spot next year, with szczur he gets better the more he plays because in college his focus was more on football than baseball, so i dont get y poepl r getting angry at loosing jackson wen he can land you rizzo
choo choo!! all aboard the rebuilding train!!! all aboard!!!
I think this a good move for the cubs. we need some guys that can hit for average and steal some bases.
Brett … given that the consensus is that the Cubs have 1 top 100 prospect in their system this trade adds some much needed depth to the farm system at the higher levels. Whether they pan out or not that seems to be a much needed plus.
I don’t think it’s completely impossible that Torreyes cracks some people’s top 100 lists this spring.
If he has a good season in A+ or a decent season in AA, then he definitely is breaks those lists in 2013.
Can we make some more trades with the Reds?
An early Christmas present, Merry Christmas everyone!!!
Sounds like we won this deal. Very pleased with the prospects. Good work, Theo & Jed!
This probably isn’t the best place to ask this, but since some are hinting the cubs may flip these prospects to get Rizzo, what the hay. I know Rizzo is a cancer survivor, which I think is great. However, cancer being what it is, is it worth the risk to pursue him? Just curious.
Totally fair question, and I commend you for asking it in a sensitive way. The type he had – Hodgkins Lymphoma – has a pretty low recurrence rate once you treat it effectively. I believe it’s the same that Campana had (it tends to affect the young, and then the old).
Now, if only Jocketty suddenly moved to the Marlins, and we could send them Garza for Morrison and a large minor league haul….
For what it’s worth (not a lot) I have quite a few friends who are Reds fans and they kept saying to me that, if anything, the trade should be a one-for-one with Marshall and Wood. Those fans know their team a heck of a lot better than me, so I will take their word for it that we definitely got the better end of this deal.
Also, since a lot of people are discussing Rizzo – would he actually be the starter next year if we got him? And this probably goes without saying, but acquiring Rizzo would effectively end the pursuit of Fielder, right? I can’t see the Cubs getting Rizzo then keeping him locked behind Price for five years.
Taking a step away, I wouldn’t have had a problem with it being a 1 for 1. But the 1 for 3? From a division rival? The Cubs won it. For the present, its even (hence the 1 for 1), with the potential to provide significantly more value to the Cubs.
I think Rizzo would get a legit crack at the starting spot. Possibly a time share with LaHair or a lower end FA 1B initially, with the chance to take it over fulltime if he produces. In other words…yes.
I don’t see the Cubs being in on Fielder at all now.
Agreed. Based on our desperate need for long-term rotation solutions and his strong peripherals, I was happy with Wood for Marshall. But two pretty solid prospects on top of that?
Epic. I’m grinning ear to ear right now. I love you Jed!
Yeah, I’d say it’s a strong bet that Rizzo/Fielder is an either/or proposition.
And, if it were me, I’d let Rizzo start out at AAA, and let LaHair start in the bigs. If Rizzo keeps mashing, you bring him up, and LaHair goes to the bench (or out the door). Would be nice to save the service time on Rizzo for a year when the Cubs will be a little better…
Brett, you beat me to the punch! I was typing same thing at the same time. See below. Great minds think alike!
Dang it Brett, you keep reading my mind and then typing my thoughts before I do.
Jerk.
Hey, I said that when Rizzo discussions first popped up. See what you have in LaHair, if he sucks, call up Rizzo, if he mashes, trade LaHair at the deadline and call up Rizzo.
If we get Rizzo he will probably start in AAA as he will if he stays in SD.
And yes it would pretty much end the Fielder discussion.
If Cubs trade for Rizzo, they are most definitely out on Fielder. If the Rizzo deal is made, I see LaHair/Rizzo at 1B in 2012.
No telling what E/H & Co will actually do – but, if what we hear is true, it’s very unlikely the Cubs are in the Fielder hunt. As to Rizzo being ready now – what I’ve read here and other places – very much a mixed bag.
Further complicating the murky waters (on Fielder) was something I read yesterday … Boras is determined to get a higher per year $$ amount for him than Pujols got. If there’s truth in that it might well further dampen the market for the Prince.
I think if we get Rizzo then Pena is signed to 2 years.
Ummm no.
Noooo!
I love what TheoJed is/are doing. It’s starting to feel like we have a plan in place, and a path with which to get there. If we have to sacrifice 2012 to do it, then so be it. Might be tough expecting people to continue to fork over big money for a less than competative team though…
Two points to consider:
1. The Cubs reinstated a “downpayment” which was, to me, a test of people’s interest/commitment. Last 2 days of November they held an open house (of sorts) for current and prospective season ticket holders to view available seats … there were a LOT. :: Watch CSN Sat. night at 7 and look over TR’s shoulder at all the markers on available seats in a very limited view in right field ::
2. The Cubs – again, moved up the “paid in full” date to mid January. I thought that was a very bad decision. The front office had barely gotten their feet wet by the end of November, early decisions on roster moves were being made, etc. Coupled with keeping ticket prices at (roughly) the same level as ’11 it made the decision to re-up, as I said to the members of my group, “an act of faith.”
W/ respect to Brett Jackson, hes a really nice player, however, hes not on the same level as Rizzo. Brett is a 4star (for those of you who understand recruiting) and Rizzo is a 5star. Besides, Cubs have ZERO 1B prospects and is a much greater need than CF, and Pads know this. All that to say this, we will have to give up more than Bjax to get Rizzo, and Im ok w/ that to a point, because of the OF depth in the farm system.
While the ceiling may be higher for Rizzo, both have similar chances of never amounting to anything in the majors. Rizzo’s swing is very long and loopy, which will lead to struggles in the majors if he doesn’t change it. As it stands right now, I think Jackson has a better chance of panning out. But if Rizzo changes his swing…I’d rather have Rizzo.
Goldstein has Jackson as a 5 and Rizzo as a 4. Sickels has Rizzo as a B+, which is closer to a 4 than a 5. Who has Rizzo as a 5 star prospect?
This trade is a flat out steal to me. I watched Sappelt play a bit of LF last year @ a Reds/Cubs game. He made good breaks and had a few nice snags (even a diving one to rob a double IIRC). I think we got him b/c Byrd or Soriano are on the way out. Or like Brett said SD really likes him. IMHO… I don’t think Jackson gets moved. I think Theo and Jed see him as the CF of the future.
Cubs’ front office twitter feed confirms. It’s official. What an awesome deal for the Cubs.
This talks about possible returns for garza. I don’t know any of these players but please discuss
http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=the-gms-office&id=2981
Reed was more of a clubhouse signing than anything. And hes just a bench player.
Its not very smart to call up a kid and have him be a bench player.
Edit: Oops this was in reply to Morgan, Below.
I think I would be pissed at every single one of those trades. The Padres is the closest to being decent, but they’re all quite horrible deals. The author must dislike garza quite a lot.
I don’t like the Jays deal – Drabek has red flags all over and Gose’s floor is too low. I’d be looking for Marisnick or D’Arnaud and a different pitcher in a Jays’ package. D’Arnaud may be tough to pry away but we don’t have to deal Garza
The question is where does Reed Johnson fit in, i didnt like signing him, he again is going to play ahead of young players that need to play in probably meaningless games, id rather see Sappelt get pt instead of Reed bad signing, also this mean bryd is gone and soriano
I really, really hope Sappelt is the fourth outfielder and Johnson is the fifth and was brought on to be a mentor in the clubhouse.
Sappelt actually is what Johnson used to be before his age caught up with him.
I don’t mind Campana in the mix, for what it’s worth. Bat sucks, defense is not great, but that speed off the bench is so, so very nice.
That’s exactly what I thought about Reed. We now have 10 young guys ready not to mention all the players on the roster that play backup outfield like dewit baker campana and probably others
Marlins more interested in Z.
At this rate it will be Z with no $$ to the Marlins for Hanley and Morrison.
Check out Wood’s home/away splits.. It makes me feel even better about this trade http://t.co/wrnkaYWe
I could see the cubs having the same problem Reds had with Votto and alfonso with rizzo and vogelbach in a few years.
a sign i have too much Cubs on my mind?………………
i woke happy because i had a dream the Cubs traded Soriano…….then reality set in.