Lukewarm Stove: Ethier, Soriano, Porcello, Smyly, Sanchez, More

There are often a few moves in the week leading up to Christmas …

  • Sources tell Ken Rosenthal that the Dodgers are shopping outfielder Andre Ethier, primarily because they’d like to be able to pursue Michael Bourn or Nick Swisher (ALL. THE. PLAYERS.). We’ve heard this routine before, and it didn’t make a lot of sense because of the extension Ethier just signed with the Dodgers, and because that extension – which pays him an average salary around $17 million through 2017 (plus a vesting option for 2018) – doesn’t leave him with a whole lot of surplus trade value. If the Dodgers were looking to dump Ethier, I could see the Cubs having some interest, in the sense that they’re always interested in any undervalued assets. Aside from that, though, he’s not a great fit. He turns 31 in April, and has become a hitter who is really only effective against righties. He’s a solid defensive right fielder, but it would be a whole lot of resources to devote to a guy who will be 32/33, at the youngest, when the Cubs are ready to compete. To give up prospects for the privilege of taking on that risk? Nah. No thanks. Even if the Dodgers ate enough of his deal to make the trade understandable, is he really the right fit for the Cubs? If they wanted to go that route right now, why wouldn’t they just make a strong push for Nick Swisher? If the Dodgers seriously entertain eating a bunch of salary to move Ethier, I’m thinking one of the many teams closer to competitiveness who need an outfielder are going to step up much more aggressively than would the Cubs.
  • Speaking of the outfield, on the flip-side, if the Cubs decide to ship an outfielder out, Alfonso Soriano remains the likeliest target (even if he’s not going to be terribly easy to move because of his age, contract, and no-trade rights). Rosenthal writes separately that the Rangers aren’t crazy about any of the free agent outfield options left on the market, and aren’t crazy about committing to someone like Adam LaRoche. Soriano, who previously played for the Rangers, would come at a cheap price (the Cubs are said to be willing to eat enough of his deal to make him a $5 million player for the next two years), but is he the right guy for the Rangers? After missing out on Josh Hamilton, the whispers say the Rangers are content to just go with a combination of Ian Kinsler, Mitch Moreland, Mike Olt, and back-ups between first base, DH and left field (with Leonys Martin in center field, and Jurickson Profar at second base). Not really a bad setup, and although they’ve lost some serious pop between Hamilton and Mike Napoli, it’s not really like they’re desperate. If they added someone like Soriano, they’d probably have to find a home for Moreland (not a fit for Cubs) or Olt (way too valuable for Soriano). The Rangers could pick up Soriano and move one of those guys in a separate deal, but it’s a lot of moving parts. I suppose it’s worth keeping an eye on, though we don’t know whether Soriano would consider a deal to the Rangers.
  • Danny Knobler says the Cubs and Tigers did speak about Rick Porcello, now that he’s expendable, but the two sides didn’t find a fit. The Tigers are alternatively listening on lefty Drew Smyly, who might be a more attractive target for the Cubs. No word on whether they’ve reached out on Smyly, specifically, or what the cost would be. I’m thinking the answer would be “steep,” given that he’s just 23, under control through 2018, made it to the big leagues in just his second professional season, and pitched effectively during that stint.
  • Anibal Sanchez’s agent says his client “left money on the table” in the form of an offer at the Winter Meetings from a mystery team. Of course, he shared this tidbit as Sanchez was being reintroduced in Detroit, where the fans will now love him even more for taking less. It doesn’t really matter, but I can state with confidence that it isn’t true, at least not in the sense that the agent wants you to hear it. There’s a whole lot of ways to play around with “left money on the table,” and my guess is that – at most – he received an offer with a slightly higher average annual value than the deal he signed with the Tigers (five years, $80 million, plus a club option for 2018), but for fewer years. There is a 0.000% chance that he flatly turned down a deal better than the Tigers’ two weeks ago, and then made the Tigers and Cubs sweat over a lesser deal.
  • His agent added that Sanchez always wanted to return to Detroit, and he did everything he could to make that happen. I think we all already figured that out.

Brett Taylor is the editor and lead writer at Bleacher Nation, and can also be found as Bleacher Nation on Twitter and on Facebook.

127 responses to “Lukewarm Stove: Ethier, Soriano, Porcello, Smyly, Sanchez, More”

  1. OlderStyle

    Soriano makes a lot of sense for Texas.

  2. dudeski

    ethier is actually pretty bad defensively. career -5.5 UZR/150

  3. Justin

    I really hate agents, they are snakes and I feel they make their clients look bad a lot of the time. If we ever move a Soriano to Texas, would the Cubs consider Holland? I know it would still need some prospects to go to Texas, but would give us a great lefty to start in the rotation.

    1. Tobias

      Holland would be a good additon to the rotation, but I’m not sure how much more it would take to get Holland. Soriano (cash included), B-Jax, Matt S., and Vitters? I wonder if the Cubs and Rangers could reach a deal that included Moreland then could Cubs flip Moreland, Barney, and a couple prospects for Smyly? I like the rotation of Garza, Shark, Holland, Smyly, and Feldman and if Baker could prove that he’s healthy then Cubs could deal Garza at the deadline. Cubs would still have a rotation of Shark, Holland, Smyly, Feldman, and Baker.

    2. Justin

      I want to keep Matt S. due to the fact he is improving every year. I don’t mind B. Jax and Vitters b/c they suck, but then throw someone else in. I say grab Holland and they sign Bourn and the Cubs are set fo at least this year. Unless, Garza can prove he’s healthy and throw him in there as well and grab Olt.

      1. tobais

        I included Matt S. because Cubs have Almora and Soler for the Outfield and if Cubs do end up signing Bourne then Matt S. becomes the odd man out. It’s the same reasoning why Cubs did the Stewert for Colvin trade.

  4. JR

    Brett, why would the Dodgers have interest in Bourn? Don’t they pretty much have a better version of Bourn in Crawford (if Crawford can get healthy)? He use to be a durable players. And I would rather have Ethier than Swisher too. That just makes no sense. I know the Dodgers want everyone, but whats the point of surrendering a compensation pick when you have better options in house?

    Ethier was a triple crown candidate a couple yrs ago before a wrist injury midseason. So if he gets right I would love to have him at the right price.

    1. brickhouse

      Crawford is a LF – LA has Kemp in CF – Bourn would improve their defense in CF and you would shift Kemp to RF

      1. JR

        Yeah I know all that, but I still think it’s pretty stupid. But I don’t have the baseball smarts of Magic Johnson or anything…

    2. EQ76

      I’m convinced that the Dodgers are complete idiots.

    3. Justin

      Just let the Dodgers spend and then when they don’t win, they will blame the GM and Manager when in fact it’s the front office pushing for all of these signings and trades.

      1. Hee Seop Chode

        but what if they do win?

        1. Kyle

          Then they are fools. Do you know how bad the draft pool is for the World Series champion?

          1. Hee Seop Chode

            And the international signing pool! They’d have to go over their slot to get anyone of consequence!

  5. Curt

    be nice if the cubs made at least 1 move that will really help in 2014 and Brett did u find the scraper, I kid seems to happen every year lol.

    1. JR

      The players that may help in 2014 will be only be aquired via trade from the undervalued gimps that the Cubs have signed and will flip at the deadline. So I guess they kinda signed someone who will help in 2014 if you look at it that way.

  6. someday...2015?

    Garza, Smyly/Porcello, Shark, Feldman/Baker/Wood. With the addition of a Smyly/Porcello the Cubs would be an ace away from having a very solid rotation. Hopefully Knobler was just speculating that there’s “no fit.”…. It seems like the Cubs would be a perfect fit.

  7. fortyonenorth

    “left money on the table”

    Bah. Not buying it. Agent spin. Nothing more.

    1. hansman1982

      Sure they left money on the table. Mystery team came in, set some money on a table for Sanchez and they left that money there for the money the Tigers put on their table.

      Politician 101.

      Just like next week, Santa will be leaving A LOT of cookies on the table.

      1. Beer Baron

        Hey I left money on the table this weekend too. But the waitress did a nice job and deserved it.

  8. Seth

    I find it hard to believe that there isn’t a fit with the Cubs and Porcello. Detroit needs a closer type pitcher and a 2B/SS (Marmol and Barney anyone?).

    1. Norm

      And perhaps DET doesn’t want a “closer type pitcher” that walks over 5 batters per 9?
      And perhaps DET wants a 2B that can, you know, hit a little?

      1. Rich

        I agree on Marmol. But they need a defense first 2nd baseman to make up for there short coming all over the IF. The problem is they probably want to upgrade defensively at SS as well. The Cubs really can not match them there unless you want to move a gold glover back to SS? I can understand why our assets and trade pieces don’t match. We are at build for 2014 time and Detroit is at win now time. So our short term assets are not players they need.

    2. someday...2015?

      I agree 100%. I highly doubt the Tigers are banking on an unproven prospect to come in and be the closer of a potential WS team.(Rondon) I like where your going with Marmol and Barney, but I would like to see a deal like that turn it into a blockbuster by the Cubs attempting to get Castellanos along with a Porcello, or Smyly.

      Maybe A HEALTHY Garza, Marmol, Barney, Jackson, and Lake for Smyly, Castellanos, and a PTBNL… That would be giving up a lot(on both sides), but it would be a deal where the Cubs wouldn’t have to destroy the farm they’ve built up, and at the same time they would get a very nice return.

  9. #1cubsfan2013

    u know wat alot of u guys will be like texas will never do that but here i go anyway trade marmol ad soriano for olt they need a good OF and good RP. ready for your criticism

    1. cRAaZYHORSE

      By adding Soriano to the Rangers would be like having two Cruzes or two Sorianos. Imagine the Box Scores when those two players slump a couple times a week . Too many combine 08 and 4/24 series batting lines. Soriano and Cruz too mush of the same player to be good on the same team.

  10. TonyP

    I am curious to compare the Dodgers vs. Cubs success over the next 10-12 years…

    1. hansman1982

      I am interested as well. Obviously they will do better in 2013-2015 than the Cubs (then again, with their payroll anything short of complete NL West DOMINATION is a failure). Beyond that, it will be interesting to see where their payroll sits on a consistent basis.

      They have trimmed their farm system by a healthy amount and stand to get lower-first round draft picks (which traditionally don’t have much more success beyond a second-round draft pick) so it will be interesting to see how they are able to sustain their success as their core gets old (and expensive).

      1. cRAaZYHORSE

        The Yankees have been the playoffs for 12 of the last 13 years . The new Yankees of the West might one day have the same problems ,lets revisit in 13 years.

        1. DarthHater

          Sounds good. I look forward to hearing from you again in 13 years.

  11. Cubbie in NC

    Eithier is not a good fit for the Cubs. There are enough free agents that are one dimensional no reason to give up prospects to get another one.

    Does anyone else wonder why Lake is playing in the outfield when he could be a right handed platoon guy at 3rd where the Cubs have a need.

    Is that a sign that the Cubs are giving up on a couple of the CF prospects, or they are showcasing him for a team to be involved in a trade?

    With the new front office I am waiting to see which of the prospects are not as highly regarded anymore and are going to be flipped. Too many shortstops and centerfielders to keep all of them.

    1. Hee Seop Chode

      A lot of people around here say there weren’t enough free agents to make the Cubs competitive this year…but the Dodgers pretty much proved that wrong.

      1. DocPeterWimsey

        The Dodgers did no such thing as they are starting off in much better shape than the Cubs. Last year’s Dodgers wen 86-76 with a run differential of +40. Yes, they had their big acquisitions (HRam, AGonz, Beckett) later in the year: but they actually fell off of their pace a little after that! (They played way over their heads in Apriil)

        Last year’s Cubs had a run differential of -146. Adding Greinke & Ryu doesn’t get you to where the Dodgers were last year, never mind actual contention. (Am I forgetting someone else that the Dodgers signed? puzzles……)

      2. DarthHater

        the Dodgers pretty much proved that wrong.

        Any free agents the Dodgers have signed this off-season doesn’t prove anything, since they have not yet played a single game with those guys.

        As for the big-name players the Dodgers traded for last season, the team’s record with those guys also proves nothing. The Dodgers got off to a very fast start last year and were 32-15 (.681) as of May 27, long before they made any of the big trades. By July 26, the day of the Hanley Ramirez trade, their record was 53-47 (.530). By August 25, the day of the Adrian Gonzalez megatrade, they were 69-58 (.543). Their final record was 86-76 (.531).

        That means that the Dodgers’ record after the Ramirez trade was 33-29 (.532) a winning percentage almost identical with what it was before the trade. After the Gonzalez trade, they had a losing record of 17-18 (.486). The Dodgers 2012 season, therefore, does not in any way prove the value of going all out on acquiring high-priced, big-name players.

  12. Patrick

    Really sick of this perfect fit talk… Geez it’s like if the player isn’t in His low to mid 20′s with impeccable makeup and tools OR that cannot be flipped for a surplus of PROSPECTS-that don’t usually add much to mix anways! I get what the team is doing and for the most part agree! But perfect this and perfect that is gettig redic ESP since we are talking about a team with 100 loses. Either Wont come close to breaking the bank for the cubs!!! Yeah he isn’t cheap but he’s a good player and is STILL young enough to contribute at least 2015-16. Not a bad guy to mentor young players either. It would be foolish to at least listen because he isn’t ideal at this point. He can only help. This isn’t Hamilton/pujols money cubs can still do what they are doing and be ok financially-I promise.

    1. King Jeff

      Eh, I think I’d rather have Bourn all things considered. I’m sure LA isn’t giving Ethier away, so not only will he be an aging outfielder with a not-so-good contract, who’s defense is only ok, he would cost some prospects and likely someone cheap for the Dodger bullpen. Bourn is pretty good defensively, gets on base more, and would only cost money. Comparing contracts, age, injury risk, production, and what Ethier would cost in trade, I think Bourn is a much better option for the Cubs at this point.

  13. Rizzo 44

    Cubs trade with the Tigers.
    Cubs get Nick Castellanos, Bruce Rondon, and Smyly.
    Tigers get Marmol(8M), Soriano(28M), Barney, Vitters, and Trey McNutt.
    Reason Cubs do this trade. Helps the Cubs get younger, great 3B for the future, new closer, and much need pitching depth. Reason Tigers do this trade. Gives them a closer and a low cost of 1.8M, gives them a LF with power for 3M a year for 2 years, a gold glove 2B, and depth. Also the Tigers are built to win now. This helps with that. I would even go a step further with the trade and add BJax and Garza for Casey Crosby and Porcello. This would be a monster deal and by 2014 the Cubs would be a ton better. I’m sure people will say this trade is onesided, but I gave points as to why I feel it could work. Garza would have to prove he is healthy also.

    1. JR

      Old dudes and half ass prospects don’t get elite prospect talent back. And quantity doesn’t equal quality. Sorry Rizzo. I like the optimism though.

    2. JB88

      I’m going to go fill my cup with some sort of beverage so I can give this post the proper reaction …

    3. DarthHater

      Reason Tigers do this trade: Somebody replaced their brains with rice pudding.

  14. Hasbrook

    I think Ethier is a good get if we can get him a genuine market value — namely decreasing salaries as he ages. He’s a consistent hitter overall, fairly durable, and a good clubhouse presence. We have no senior guys to regulate the clubhouse anymore so he has some intangibles that could make this worth it with the right deal.

  15. TSB

    According to the press in LA, the ones not in the tank for the Dodgers, Ethier is a jerk and not liked by his teammates. No thanks, no Milton Bradley clones

    1. Cubbie in NC

      I used to live in LA, and Ethier was at the center of the clubhouse issues when he got there. Plus he supposedly had a dust up with Mattingly last year I think his attitude is questionable at best.

      1. Hasbrook

        Interesting, I stand corrected on this one — forget that guy!

  16. Curt

    hey Brett,, you said earlier that to get drew smiley it’d be very expensive just how expensive do you think it would be., like myb Baez and a bunch more what?

  17. DarthHater
    1. Kyle

      I feel like “keeping pitchers healthy and helping them back from injury” has been the “next big market ineffiicency” for like five years now. The results have been pretty mediocre, even in places like Boston.

      1. DarthHater

        I’m not sure that gambling on TJS comebacks is exactly the same as more generally “keeping pitchers healthy and helping them back from injury,” but you may be correct. I don’t know the historical numbers on TJS recovery.

        But even so, if you can obtain pitchers with good upside who would not have been available to you but for the TJS and it doesn’t cost a lot to get them, then it’s probably worth a shot. Of course, its stupid to make that one’s ONLY strategy – unless your team has no money at all, which is not the case for the Cubs. But as one piece of an overall building program, it seems like a good approach. I’ll feel better about the Cubs if/when they actually sign somebody, instead of coming close, finishing second, etc.

  18. Alec

    The rangers don’t seem very higher on mike olt. If we pay 3/4 of sorianos salary do you think we could get him?

    1. DarthHater

      nope. gonna take a lot more than that.

    2. Justin

      They are not too worried about money issues based on the fact they were going to sign Hamilton, but just dumping Soriano for Olt would never happen. I think would have to be a Sori, Garza and prospects for that return. Garza has to be healthy though so would the Rangers take that risk? Doubt it

  19. Coolbeans

    I’ve long advocated trading Garza for prospects but my view has recently changed on that. Those of you who are obsessing over “prospects” for Garza need to consider this.

    Take a look at the 2014 FA class. Its a joke. In fact, Garza may be the best player on that list considering Cano will probably be locked up. A Garza extension is something I would welcome because there is NO pitching on the market.

    This actually makes me a little ticked off that we didnt sign Anibal Sanchez. Yes, the guy is not that good, but he is a good #3 and it doesnt look like a good #3 at the age of 28 is going to be on the market for quite some time. Plus the Cubs are just swimming in the $$$.

    The Cubs may need to reconsider competing in 2014, because I dont see where the good players are going to come from. There is absolutely no FA help next year. Maybe someone can enlighten me

    1. JR

      I am completely cool with extending Garza, but I would love to know more info about his bone bruise injury. Is this the type of injury that can cause other problems? I can’t find any info on it.

      1. Coolbeans

        Im looking at this as if he were healthy. Just pointing out that there is not going to be FA help in 2014.

    2. Dustin S

      I have to agree at least offensively the 2014 FA class will be one of the weakest in a long time looking at who’s eligible. I’m sure a few guys will have the usual career years before hitting free agency, but there isn’t much in the way of hitting next year. Some marginal hitters are probably going to get big money. Pitching looks a bit better but it’s definitely not loaded. There are so many moving pieces and unknowns on this team, other than a few spots it’s just too early to tell where the gaps will be after this season.

  20. World Series Dreaming » If the Cubs Had “Force Trade” On, They Might Consider Drew Smyly

    [...] pm Posted In: Chicago Cubs Among other reports swimming around the interwebs lately, Brett at Bleacher Nation writes a blurb about the Tigers possibly floating both Rick Porcello and Drew Smyly on the trade [...]

  21. Rizzo 44

    I say trade anyone not named Castro, Castillo, and Rizzo. If a great offer comes take it. Garza, Shark, Marmol, Soriano, Wood, DeJesus, Barney, Vitters, Jackson, and Campana. I think the Cubs have a lot of work to do to even be good enough to compete by 2014. Shark has some trade value and I think he would be a great person to package to get a big deal done. I wouldn’t really like to trade him unless the Cubs can get better from the trade in more than one area at the same time. I still would love a three team deal with the Rangers, Dbacks, and Cubs.

  22. Justin

    Why not try and include Marmol in a trade for Procello or Smyly. Tigers are desperate for a closer.

    1. DocPeterWimsey

      That might not be true. One of the things that came out of the playoffs was the suggestion that the Tigers (or at least their FO) has come to see that “closer” is not like (say) shortstop, and that the best move is to have multiple good relievers. The success of Dotel and Coke made up for Velvarde’s “implosion” (really, he’s always relied on getting batters to chase bad pitches): and that opened some eyes.

      Of course, those eyes might already have shut to the “closer is a position” default setting!

      1. Justin

        Okay so since they did well in the playoffs they should get a duo closer job? Look back at both of their stats. Last time Dotel was a closer was in 2010 where he converted 22/28 chance (79%) and Coke has never been a closer and last year went 1/3 chances. Valverde converted 35/40 chances last year(88%) and the year before was 100%. So why not take Marmol who is a consistent closer?

        1. King Jeff

          They also have Bruce Rondon waiting in the wings to take over the role, and he’s probably a better option for them than Marmol at this point.

          1. Justin

            Well they have him waiting that’s fine, but if they want someone now they arn’t going to call him up to take over right away. Hey if they want Dotel and Coke for now then cool, just thought I would throw it out

            1. King Jeff

              Actually, that’s the talk going on in Detroit, letting Rondon come up and see if he can do the job. Some say he tops out at 103 and he has a pretty nasty slider to compliment, he’s Carlos Marmol, but throws harder, gets paid the minimum, and is years younger.

      2. hansman1982

        “Closer” may be one of the most over-rated positions in baseball, at least in terms of handing it to one guy for years and years and years.

        Then again, it seems to be a position that was created from a stat so I’m sure that’s a good thing.

        1. DarthHater

          “Closer” is a very useful category. It allows you to take advantage of fools who are willing to trade you value in exchange for your closer.

          1. hansman1982

            very true…I’d bet that if you look at most of these 2-year AWESOME then crap closers you’ll find some remarkable similarities to bench players who are transistioned to, and fail as, starters.

        2. DocPeterWimsey

          I would not even consider a save to be a true “statistic”: those should provide some summary of something. It’s a data type, but more arbitrary than, say, HR.

          The general concept is not even a really bad one: it just got badly, badly abused, and became a horse instead of a package on a cart.

          But we’ll see how well Detroit holds to this: they said (or were purported to say) a lot of stuff in the aftermath of the WS that might have been over-reaction to being swept.

  23. Kenster

    No big deal but i checked the Cubs non roster invitee on their website and i saw they added infielder Edwin Maysonet to the list havent seen anything about that anywhere lol but thats probably cuz no one cares since hes not going to make any difference for the Cubs

  24. jdblades7

    It would take a healthy Garza and a top 20 cubs prospect to get Olt

  25. jdblades7

    In my calculations the cubs should have around 75-80 mil. on the table from reducing their team salary from last year. They went from around 130 to 90 million give or take. Also with the new tv deal that number should rise into the 100 millions. We better be closer to our usual 130 mil in 2013 and 150 or more in 2014 or I am going to be pissed at the Ricketts.

    1. Brian

      Don’t think they are going to spend just so your not pissed! Players have to be available and want to play for said Cubs and owners.!!

  26. DarthHater

    Write him a letter:

    Mr. Tom Ricketts
    Chairman, Chicago Cubs
    Wrigley Field
    1060 West Addison Street
    Chicago, IL 60613-4397

  27. LEO L

    well if they cant find a player that wants to come to the cubs or missed on oppurtunities before that leaving no players to sign then i would have to say they screwed up. i doubt that will happen

  28. Rizzo44

    Please don’t give a bunch of prospects to LA for Eithier… I say sign Carlos Villanueva, trade Soriano and Marmol to Texas for a Olt package (us paying most if Fansi’s contract). Sign Michael Bourn, idk, 4 years, 70 mil if it drops like that… I’m ready for Theo and Jed to start spending some dough!

  29. toby taylor

    they got a serious hole/need to fill in the 25man roster as in a backup 1st baseman–any thoughts or rumors about maybe a jeff baker reunion?

  30. ruby2626

    Please no more talk on this site of trading Baez or Shark. Baez’ potential is that of a perennial All Star and Shark although quite a bit older is just tapping into his potential. Guys who are 6’5″ and have 4 plus pitches including an upper 90′s fastball are not the kind of guys I’m looking to trade.

    I didn’t want to mention the article on the other site about the Cubs and TJ surgeries but as long as someone else mentioned it I’ll chime in and say it was such a good article I already emailed it to 2 friends. Like I said a few months before, Dempster balking on the trade that would have sent us Delgado will end up a blessing, Vizcaino’s potential is much higher, guess time will tell.

    Cubs really need Vogelbach to keep putting up huge numbers. Be great if he could work himself up to a top 20 prospect, he would be great trade bait seeing that he plays a position that is already filled.

    1. Jeremy

      Shark does not have 4 plus pitches. He has 2. Baez is in A-Ball and has very high chance of flaming out, trading him in the future for better players would make a ton of sense.

    2. daveyrosello

      The Cubs don’t need to trade Vogelbach if he pans out. You always find room in your lineup for a plus bat, always. Most 1B can make the switch to LF if need be, if Vogelbach’s bat ever forced the issue, you’d evaluate which of Rizzo or Vogelbach could make the switch to the OF, and you make it. All of which is presumptive on him really having a monster bat, we’re a good 2 years away from having solid enough evidence on that one way or the other. For now, let the big kid play and see what develops.

      And who knows, in the near future there may well finally be the DH in the NL, that would solve the “problem” for sure.

    3. Kenster

      Pretty sure Vogelbach is already a top 20 prosect. Most consider him between the top 5 to 15 within the orginization