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sammy sosa kissIt would seem a happy day – or at least relief-filled day – for hockey fans, as the NHL and the NHL Player’s Association have tentatively reached an agreement to finally end the lockout, which gobbled up a huge chunk of the season (and, with it, a good chunk of the sport’s relevance). I’ll confess, I’m not a big hockey fan – though it’s a great sport to watch live. Still, I feel for hockey fans who’ve been waiting patiently for this day, and I’m glad you folks will get most of a season. Hopefully the Blackhawks will be a playoff team once again.

  • Hall of Fame voting results are set to be released this week, so the uptick in articles on the subject is understandable. The Chicago Tribune takes a poll of its writers on who they’d be voting for, and each shares thoughts on the subject of voting. You notice a couple things perusing: Sammy Sosa’s name comes up a lot in discussion, but he doesn’t receive a single vote. And that’s from Chicago writers. His goose is cooked. The other thing you notice? Far too many writers have an absurd memory about the caliber of pitcher Jack Morris was. Good pitcher? Yes. Long career? Yes. Hall of Fame career? How is this seriously a discussion?
  • A few fringe Cubs prospects have been released by the organization: pitchers Pete Levitt, Bryce Shafer, and Willengton Cruz. The latter, a lefty, was probably the prospecty-est of the three, having been with the Cubs for four seasons, but never really turned the corner as he reached Low-A ball.
  • Also gone: Alfredo Amezaga. The journeyman utility infielder, 34, spent the 2012 season with the Iowa Cubs, but now moves on to the Los Angeles Dodgers on a minor league deal.
  • More Hall of Fame/steroids/Sammy Sosa literature, this from the New York Times, which you may recall was the first publication to “out” Sosa, formally in a 2009 article, as having failed a drug test. The short version: Sosa has absolutely no chance of making the Hall this year, and probably not ever.
  • Dave

    I wonder if Josh Beckett is going to have Morris-like support for the HOF. Beckett is going to end up we’ll behind Morris in wins, but right now Beckett has an ERA+ of 112 (Morris was 105 for his career) which may move around a bit now that he’s in LA, but I think when his career is over we will see him as an above average pitcher who had a few very good (but not Cy Young worthy) years and was a legit postseason ace a couple of times.

    • Internet Random

      Beckett should get some extra votes for eating fried chicken and drinking beer during games… as well as playing golf on days he’s sitting because of “injury”.

  • LouCub

    I was listening to Casey Stern on MLB radio yesterday and he thinks Piazza still gets 75% of the vote regardless of roids…I called up Kevin Kennedy’s show after word to see what they thought of Sammy’s chances..I told him the guy was a sideshow but for amost a decade he was a clutch performer who hit a ton…If they’re gonna allow any of those juicers in, Sammy needs to be in as well..Kennedy reeled off his stats, 273 career hitter, 609 Homeruns, 2,000 plus hits and I forget the rbi total but if ANY of thoe guys are in, so should Sammy..

  • Spoda17

    I will admit I enjoyed watching Sosa… but he is not a hall of famer…

  • LouCub

    Is Piazza,??? are Palmiero??? Bonds??? Clemens?? McGwire??? If one gets in they should all be in..If all are kept out fine as well… Don’t throw one guy under while others skate in that’s only fair

  • walterj

    No to Sosa . I have no sympathy for him for not making it .

    • bluekoolaidaholic

      Ditto!
      Cheaters are cheaters, and I think character matters too. In Sosa’s case, not only did he cheat with PEDs but also the corked bat and who knows what else.
      Sorry Bonds, Clemens, Big Mac, etc. Maybe they could go in with an asterisk or have their own “roid” or “cheater”category.

      • @cubsfantroy

        In that regard, the ’86 Mets should have an asterisk by their name for the World Series title since they were all on coke. We will call it the “coke” winners column.

        • Phil Hurd

          And we should have an asterisk next to everyone who didn’t face off against african american players, everyone who played before the mound was lowered, anyone who used a spitball, and anyone who used amphetamines…..there goes more than half of the people in the Hall. The problem is baseball is an ever changing game and because the Hall is supposed to show the “history” of baseball, it’d be a complete heresy to leave out an entire generation of superstars.

          • @cubsfantroy

            I agree completely. I think it is the writers who have lost sight of that, not the fans.

            On a completely different note, I still feel Pete Rose should be in the HOF.

            • frank

              Pete Rose had a Hall of Fame career, no doubt. But the rules in this case are very clear–gambling = lifetime ban from the HOF. But because it’s a “lifetime” ban–my guess is they put him in shortly after he passes away.

  • LouCub

    Then McGwire, Piazza, Bonds, Pameiro,Clemens and Bagwell no way as well..fair is fair

    • Hardtop

      It’s such a tough call. Many of those guys you mentioned, I “feel”, could have had hall of fame or borderline HoF careers w/out the juice. Sammy, as much as I loved him, was unlikely to make a big mark on baseball without that advantage. I still think he would have been a good player, but not in any HOF conversations…. But who can really say what might have been. It’s kind of too bad some of the fellas on your list went down that road, because they could have been successful and appreciated for their other accomplishments. I don’t necessarily blame them; baseball was a confusing thing in those days.
      Clemens is just an a-hole though ;)

  • Finner

    Brett do you have a routing interest in the NFL? I know you’re all about the Wolverines but I can not recall you declaring a favorite NFL team. My best guesses would be Detroit, Green Bay, or just more of a college fan.

    • http://www.bleachernation.com Brett

      I am trying to become a Bears fan, but it’s tough to do it later in life, it turns out. I don’t really have an NFL team, although I do watch it a lot. Mostly that’s because of fantasy, though – I’m a fantasy football hound.

      • hansman1982

        It really is…

        When I was a kid I was a hardcore Niners fan, then in the early 2000’s when I was a gambling fool, I became a Vikings fan. Hard to shake those two teams.

        • Stinky Pete

          I find myself drifting farther from the NFL and football in general the older I get.
          1) As I/we learn more about head injuries, I pray every day my boy will choose cross country. As a teenager, I lived, breathed and bled football. Now older wiser and more risk averse, it just seems too dangerous.
          2) I can still name the 24 starters on the ’85 Bears. They’ve had some good teams, but I have come to the realization that they will NEVER be as good. And it always leads to disappointment. Of course I would not stop watching solely because of this. But in conjunction with the other reasons, it’s a factor.
          3) Excessive celebration. I really didn’t mind the TO show or ” The greatest show on turf” celebrations AFTER TOUCHDOWNS. But the dog and pony stuff after each sack or loss? Or even gain? Does Peppers have a dance? I really don’t know if i am selectively missing him. Oh and thanks WR for letting me know you made a first down. Maybe the network should come up with a graphic so the viewers at home would know where the 1st down is and you wouldn’t have to do that nonsense anymore. Really. I turned on a college game and was shocked when the defender and ball carrier just got up and went back to their respective huddles.
          So that’s all I got. Back to baseball.

      • King Jeff

        He’s really a Jets fan, but can’t come up with any kind of plausible excuse or explanation for it, so he claims ambiguity.

        • @cubsfantroy

          Could you blame him if it were true?

  • @cubsfantroy

    Steroid users should get in. If most of baseball was on steroids anyway, it was still a level playing field. Bonds deserves it, Clemens, Sosa, Piazza, and anyone else who used. Not McGwire though, I hated that guy.

  • Brian Unroe

    That hurts…. I’m a big Sammy Sosa fan. I was stationed in S. Korea in 1999 , the year McGuire and Sosa were chasing the single season home run record and one of my closest friends stationed with me there was a St.Louis fan… Lol. A lot of trash talking going in but none the less my year went by pretty fast and my year tour was more enjoyable wathing the both of them that year. Ill never forget the corked bat incident and ” how ” his batting practice bat got mixed in with his regular bats. But most of all I loved watching Sammy run out to right field every home game and you can hear he fans in the bleachers scream there excitement.

    • @cubsfantroy

      That was in 1998 that they were chasing the record.

      • Internet Random

        Somehow I managed to get his point anyway.

        • @cubsfantroy

          I did too, I’m just in a correcting mood for some reason. Probably the drugs.

  • http://Bleachernation.com Frank

    I wouldn’t vote for any,but if one gets in then Sammy should be in as well.

  • John

    Let’s put the steroid allegations and clubhouse presence issues aside for a moment since I don’t think they even have a place in a HOF discussion. The fact is that Sosa played at a tremendously high level during his peak. Unfortunately that peak lasted only a few years and his overall career performance lacks HOF credentials. Typically to be elected you need a high peak and a long career and Sosa just comes up short in the latter category. While he should merit some consideration he doesn’t belong in the HOF based on his performance. McGuire is in the exact same boat.

    • @cubsfantroy

      He has had about as long of a career as you can have. Same with McGwire. I don’t see where you are saying they didn’t have long careers.

      • John

        It’s not the length of the career that matters, it is the performance during those non peak years that do. Compared to other Hall of Fame players Sosa and McGwire’s numbers fall short during their off-peak years. Read up on the JAWS system. It’s a way to combine the peak level of performance and the career long level of performance. Sosa earned 42 wins over his career while the average RF in the HOF earned 49. McGwire earned 49 while the average HOF at his position earned 52. While those totals are close they do fall short, and would only rank McGwire and Sosa 12th and 13th on this years ballot. Their non=peak performance would rank them as 13th and 16th on this year’s ballot.

        They were very good players whose peaks burned brighter than anybody else’s, but overall they fall short by most objective measures.

        • @cubsfantroy

          That I agree with. I got caught up on the career thing. I see what you’re saying though.

    • brickhouse

      Sosa belong in the HOF based off his numbers – He had 9 straight years of 35+ HR’s and 100+ RBI and 600+ career HR’s.

      • John

        I agree that those are very good numbers but you have to discount them a bit due to the offensive numbers being posted at the time. But the most important point is that Sosa’s level of performance still falls short of the current members’ performances.

  • RoughRiider

    I think Sosa should be in. Along with Bonds, Palmero, Clemens & McGuire. However, They cheated. I remember than Leo Durocher was suspended for the 1947 season because of gambling ties. He didn’t make the HOF until after his death. That’s a fitting way for these guys and Rose to get in.

  • MichiganGoat

    Here is my take on all this writer being the “voice of reason and keeping the hall pure by refusing to let roid guys in” – these same writers, baseball, and fans supported, celebrated, and ignored the roiders as they reignited the game and entertained everyone. Everyone ignored the obvious – baseball was juicing. McGuire looked like a silverback gorilla, Bomds head grew exponentially, Sammy went from a skinny

  • Gabriel

    I can’t help but wonder why most still talk about Thome as a HOF candidate but not Sosa. Thome probably has the “he’s always been big” argument, but so have A LOT of players and they typically break down even earlier than most smaller players. Thome’s career has been unusually long, his HR totals are ridiculous, and yet most that seem unsuspicious of him gladly cast Sammy aside.

    “Untainted” guys like Thome, Bagwell, Piazza, Glavine, Smoltz, & Pedro are such outliers I guess it is just difficult for me to believe that it is natural given how unbelievably long their primes lasted. How is Sammy Sosa any different than these guys?

    • King Jeff

      I think that Sosa’s suspicion comes from logic. He got huge, he hit tons of home runs for a few years, and he pretended he couldn’t understand English when he was asked if he took ped’s. I am almost certain that guys like Bagwell, Thome, and Piazza juiced, they just weren’t called out for it in front of Congress.

      I think it’s fairly easy for most people who follow baseball closely to tell who the true HOF talents in that generation are/were, and I think a truly qualified voter would have no problem determining who truly deserved to be in. There are notorious cheaters littering the HOF now, and I think it would be more of a black eye to baseball to ignore this era of the game. As much as I hate cheating, it did bring the game back from the brink that greed pushed it to. I see no problem putting these guys in the Hall, noting that this was the steroid era, and letting history judge the game.

    • DocPeterWimsey

      Actually, Bagwell and (especially) PIazza have had lots of whispers around them concerning steroids.

      As for the length of their “primes,” people try to use this both ways. Lots of injuries are evidence of steroids: guys get over-built, particularly in the “start” muscles that they damage the “stop” muscles as well as ligaments, tendons and bone:muscle attachments. Long careers are evidence of steroids because it’s “unnatural.”

      Of course, the problem is that we always saw both. Jimmy Foxx was the youngest player to reach 500 HR before Griffey Jr.: and he hit 27 more in the next two seasons, winding up with only 36 more. (This was not due to military service, btw: his body had pretty much just given out at that point.) There were always a handful guys who just fell off the table in a hurry. Conversely, there were always a handful of guys like Hank Aaron who were still productive in their late 30’s. (Of course, they usually fell like stones when they did fall!)

      Ultimately, I’d stand the “character” on it’s head: if you are not “cheating,” then you are not trying.

  • @cubsfantroy

    Who is this McGuire guy everyone keeps bringing up?

    • MichiganGoat

      Ha I just notice my auto correct respelled McGwire to McGuire weird even the iPhone wants to keep him out.

      • @cubsfantroy

        He didn’t support Apple!

        Good enough reason to keep him out.

        I hate Apple! lol

  • MichiganGoat

    Here is my take on all this writer being the “voice of reason and keeping the hall pure by refusing to let roid guys in” – these same writers, baseball, and fans supported, celebrated, and ignored the roiders as they reignited the game and entertained everyone. Everyone ignored the obvious – baseball was juicing. McGuire looked like a silverback gorilla, Bonds head grew exponentially, Sammy went from a skinny OF to hopping, kissing freakshow. Everyone knew what was happening and supported it but know the writers are holier than than baseball and will punish them for doing exactly what everyone allowed, supported, and wanted. Writer quit acting like this was the only time in history players cheated as far as the rules allowed and vote these players in. Either than or suspend all HOF ballots for the next 5 years because we have no way of knowing who did or didn’t during these years. Baseball writers please stop playing courtroom.

    • @cubsfantroy

      All of the writers have god complexes though. They always have.

    • Jeff1969

      Not exactly true. That’s what you think only. Fans knew, though many chose to ignore, the fact that these record chases were fake. You think fans didn’t notice how Sammy went from like a 40 homer high to 66 in a season? You think fans bought that crap about there being a “livlier ball”? Maybe some did, but some fans were grossed out by the immense fake love that was showered on these cheaters. The media didn’t report it hardly at all, and allowing them to now choose who is enshrined is wrong. They were a huge part of the cover up, that much is true, but if you were watching McGwire & Sosa’s chase & sat there thinking “Boy isn’t this great!” then you were & possibly still are an idiot. Or a baseball fan that just doesn’t care about having standards & being honest in your daily lives. The part of the narrative that just makes it even worse imo i was watching the Maris family watch McGwire’s phony ass break their dad’s record. McGwire is such a piece of shite for allowing all of that to happen. Crying, holding his son in his arms like he was some kind of superman. The records of these cheaters should be erased, they should be forgotten just like Pete Rose, the 1919 Black Sox, etc.

      • JR

        Who cares at this point? People can take the I would do the right thing approach. But I would have juiced in a heart beat to make 10 times more money and be awesome at baseball.

        • Jeff1969

          Well, if you have any standards that you try to live by, you should care, just like everyone else. Wow good for you. But you are saying that you don’t, that money is more important than honesty to you. It’s nice that you are so honest with yourself & everyone else.

          • JR

            Whatever man. You can act like Mother Teresa behind your computer, but that’s not very realistic for most competitive athletes….

          • MichiganGoat

            So during the roid era you didn’t watch baseball, buy a ticket, buy a shirt, etc. If you morals and standards are so high shouldn’t you have completely boycotted baseball during that era. It easy to talk about having standards after the fact but PEDs were everywhere in baseball not just with the heavy HR hitters. Participating in the MLB in anyway during those years supported the use of PEDs and MLB ignoring the problem. I knew what was happening and didn’t like what it was doing for the game but MLB was allowing it and I can’t punish a person for doing what they were allowed, praised, and encouraged to do by everyone. Those are my standards.

            • JR

              Right on Goat. I am not saying juicing is cool or the right thing to do. I just think it had to be tough not too when you see all the great things that it could bring to you. Baseball dropped the ball during the 90’s for sure..

            • Boogens

              Hey Goat, I usually agree with almost all of your opinions and insight but I have to say that I don’t on this one. The point of view that you’re presenting portrays the wonks in MLB as more complicit in the steroid era than the players themselves. This kind of implies that the players were in a way victims of a culture that MLB promoted. I just don’t see it that way. The steroids era began with the players and worked its way through baseball at a grass-roots level, not through the clubs or MLB. At some point the MLB wonks realized what was going on (as we all did) but they chose to let it continue because it caused the game to prosper.

              As JR pointed out, the players did steroids for ego, money, fame or whatever else self-serving reason. They didn’t do it because MLB supported it or they were pressured, they did it for selfish reasons and they knowingly cheated. Athletes have always benefited from their athletic skills, through reduced expectations outside of the games (like managing academic standards, complying with the law, etc.), fame, money, not having to be as accountable for their actions as non-athletes do, etc. To now look at that era and absolving them of their responsibility for cheating by blaming MLB for letting it happen and by claiming everyone else was doing it is improper. The HOF is a privilege, not a birthright, and to allow them in under suspect circumstances just allows them to achieve the highest accolade possible without any ramifications for their cheating actions. It continues the lifetime pass that they’ve always gotten. It’s sickening.

              Both Bonds and Clemens are among the most reprehensible offenders but each has been exonerated in a court of law so it’s difficult to exclude them. The others… no chance. The HOF is a privilege and not a right so it’s as simple as saying no to cheaters (even suspected cheaters). We don’t have to defend it beyond the vote.

              • MichiganGoat

                Thanks, I’m not saying the players are victims but instead the use of PED was a mutually beneficial move by both players and the MLB. It increased the fame and notoriety of both the players and the league. We the fans and the media supported this and for a while (especially during the race to beat 61) the majority were excited and supportive of the direction the MLB was going. And if Bonds and Clemens are in because a court of law exonerated them then shouldn’t Sosa since charges were never filed.

                • Boogens

                  My personal preference would be that no one would get in from the steroids era. At least in the Bonds & Clemens cases you could look at their stats and determine that they had HOF worthy careers prior to their alleged steroid use.

                  As for Sosa, I believe that he greatly benefited from the use of steroids although we can’t prove that he use them. It was interesting that his name was “leaked” as one of the 200+ players that failed the first drug test right after he said that he’ll wait his 5 years and expect to be enshrined into the HOF because he was clean. Anyway, he doesn’t pass the metrics sniff test and certainly not the eye test. He also did a bunch of other crappy stuff that made him a hypocrite, liar, cheater and a lousy teammate. There’s probably too much baggage with him for me to evaluate him objectively so I’ve come to accept that whatever happens with him happens and to let it go.

                  The only point you made that I don’t entirely agree with is calling the use of PED a move by the players and MLB. You probably didn’t mean to say it as I took it, but my perspective is that the players started it, usage took off among the players, the league benefited so the owners took a blind eye to it. They didn’t condone it from the beginning as much as ignore it once they realized that it helped their bottom lines.

  • mudge

    Blog commenters as well.

  • Brett’s an Idiot

    Was reading through some of the comments from yesterday and came to the conclusion that Brett is a complete idiot. This guy, who claims to be a writer, yet all he does is go around the Internet, steal stories, and change a few words and treat it like its is. There is nothing wrong with citing an article, but every story comes from another source. Then this guy claims to have sources. You are just a regular guy, who lives in Ohio. What sources do you have that nobody else has. Dude, get real. If you come on here, kiss the site story stealer/biter’s ass, then you are ok. But if you make one comment that he doesn’t like, he threatens to ban you. Unless of course, you are one of his friends. They are allowed to do what they please. Oh. Brett has no way to ban anyone from this site. That’s just a dry threat. Then, people ask this guy questions like he knows the final answer. He knows no more then any one else on the site. He just happens to own it. He is the second best writer on a website that has 2 writers, and not really a good writer. He post stories with a lot of falsehoods, and then if you challenge, he gets upset. The site layout is great, which pretty much is all he has going for him. But to everyone on the site, don’t get caught up in the hype. The guy knows nothing. Next article he writes, search the web, and I guarantee that you will find another article on another site that was posted less then 24 hours from the time Brett posted his, with the same exact info. Just my 2 cents.

    • @cubsfantroy

      [img]http://tromoticons.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/facepalm.jpg?w=420[/img]

      • MichiganGoat

        Nice a perfect response to a pathetic troll

        • Crazyhorse

          No you seem to be the passive aggressive troll in my opinion. Brett should scold me but i doubt he should since i see no reply to your commnet, I wonder why? . Last night you escalated the argument by posting passive aggressive comments to excite this type of behavior.

          • MichiganGoat

            thats just like your opinion man

            • @cubsfantroy

              Shame on you Goat!

            • Brett’s an Idiot

              Dude, you are the biggest instigator here and the most ignorant ouside of the Darth dude. But We know Brett is never going to call you out. If anybody should be banded, you should be the first. Lets see if Brett has the money to Pay to upgrade so he has the ability to ban. I highly doubt it.

              • Boogens

                I completely disagree with you. I think that Brett does a great job.

                That’s not the real point, though. If you don’t like what he does, how he does it or how he writes then stop visiting the site.

                As for Goat or Darth, I like to read their opinions and if they agravate you with divergent opinions then use logic and examples to demonstrate your perspective and why their wrong instead of personal attacks.

                • Boogens

                  “they’re” instead of “their” — 2nd grade grammar mistake from me.

    • CubFan Paul

      “The site layout is great, which pretty much is all he has going for him”

      f’n hilarious

    • mudge

      Then why are you wasting your time here?

    • North Side Irish

      Now this sounds like a post from Brett’s wife….

    • Abe Froman

      “But if you make one comment that he doesn’t like, he threatens to ban you.” Ok, got it, you said something really stupid or hateful, Brett threatened to ban you as he clearly has the right to do on his website, and you are throwing a tantrum. Just my two cents (and everyone else that read your comment, with the exception of other accounts you may create).

      • Tremendous Slouch

        Love your sausage Abe… um wait a minute.

        • Abe Froman

          Like I tell the many workers at my countless Chicago area factories, the special ingredient is right here (and I point to their chest indicating their heart, you know, love).

          • Tremendous Slouch

            Well done!

    • http://www.bleachernation.com Brett

      Thanks for reading!

      • Tremendous Slouch

        Did your steal that response from someone else Brett? :)

        • Brett’s an Idiot

          No, that about the most original post he’s made since he started the site.

        • http://ehanauer.com clark addison

          Brett, don’t waste any effort on that moron. Keep up the good work.

          • http://www.bleachernation.com Brett

            I think this is where I’m supposed to say that you shouldn’t call him a moron. But thank you for the sentiment.

            • MichiganGoat

              and this is where I get all passive aggressive, you ignore me, and I continue to terrorize the the site with my secret trollish behavior

              • http://www.bleachernation.com Brett

                You know I think you’re fine … 99% of the time.

                • @cubsfantroy

                  DON’T YOU DEFEND HIM!!!!!

                  Sorry, caps lock key got stuck.

    • hansman1982

      Ya know, I did a google search of this post and found it all over the Internet over the past 3-4 years.

      Also if your going to accuse someone in writing of plagiarism you should really cite your sources before you go around libel-ing a lawyer.

      Just my two cents worth, jos goldbetterfinchnews

  • Jeff1969

    It’s becoming increasingly clear that baseball & baseball fans want to look past the “steroid era”. It doesn’t matter if they were all taking them, then they were all wrong. We just keep lowering our standrards in every way and it is making us worse as a people. If those of you so willing to vote them all in & just forget about the fact that they cheated to break the legitimate records want to watch the next generation using even better drugs & trying to hit 80, 90, or even 100 homers in a season, then good for you. People with standards won’t be watching your stupid video game like version of what was a respectable game.

    • brickhouse

      Baseball should have enforced the rules, made tougher rules, tougher penalties, included testing while the players were setting records. Baseball let these players win World Series and benefitted from the HR with increased attendance, tv ratings and record revenues. If baseball wasn’t upset with the steroid users why should you be now. Put an asterisk by their name but they were the best of an era and should be represented in the HOF which is a museum displaying history and is not associated with mlb.

      • Boogens

        It’s not entirely accurate to say that MLB should have enforced rules and testing. They needed approval for testing through the Players Association and they didn’t have it. Couldn’t have been done at that point. It is noteworthy that there were much stricter requirements at the minor league level during that period of time.

    • MichiganGoat

      Taking drugs to increase performance has always been around in baseball Wllie Mays popped greenies, a pitcher pitched a no no on LSD, Mantle had special doctors to treat him and used all kinds of supplements. The key is that MLB has to constantly revise and stay ontop of these enhancing drugs and treatments. But they will always be present but to punish someone that was allowed and encouraged to take them after the fact is what really diminishes the HOF. The writers are banning players they once celebrated because now it’s the righteous move.

      • King Jeff

        How many junkball/spitball pitchers are in the HOF? I think there are quite a few from the early days, and everyone knows that they played with a different ball, and by different rules. I think history puts everything into context, and it will be the same with the ped guys.

        • MichiganGoat

          Exactly put them in they defined a generation and the HOF should at least represent there performance (regardless of allegations) I’m just sick of this holy purity that now everyone seems to agree with.

        • Pat

          Now I don’t believe Sosa belongs in the hall of fame, but I’m going to make argue with the cheating aspect a little. I think it’s fairly obvious he took steroids. However, steroids were neither banned by baseball, nor illegal in the DR during that time period. If he only took them in the offseason (I don’t believe this to be true but it is possible) he was not cheating unless he continued once MLB did ban them.

          • King Jeff

            Yeah, Sammy used a corked bat, then lied about it. Sammy was a cheater, as much as I liked the energy and production.

        • Scotti

          Jeff, there was a time when preventing people of colour from playing on your team/in your league was acceptable. As such, Cap Anson is in the Hall. Times have changed. He would never make the Hall now. There was a time when spitballs were acceptable. That time is passed. If Garza put up Hall-sized numbers because he discovered Vaseline he would not make the Hall. There was a time when drug use (even some possible PED) was tolerated. That time has passed as well. While speed isn’t really a PED (the user becomes addicted and the numbers decline) those potential advantages pale in comparison to the very real advantages gained by steroid users. The media ASKED players if they used and they all denied. Congress asked and they denied. And now it should be okay for the Hall of Fame? If it was okay, they should have been open with it. Instead they all claimed they had great workout habits and wonderful genes.

          • Cubbie Blues

            There was also a time when PED was acceptable. That time has also passed. Everyone turned a blind eye to it the same as greenies. Let them in. There are only a handful of confirmed users anyway. All the others is speculation. Even if there are good arguments that they did use PEDS most were not caught.

  • JR

    So sick of hearing about Roids in sports. Baseball should have done a much better job of preventing it. Baseball players had every reason to take them.

  • http://Bleachernation.com Frank

    Some people confuse the hof ballot with a court of law. You don’t have to have proof beyond a reasonable doubt to vote yes or no on these guys. Their physical appearances and going from 30 hrs to 60-70 ought to give you reason to come to the conclusion that they were most likely juicing.

  • Need mee owner

    u loved watching them cheered for them now u like bud dont want nothing to do with them

  • Tremendous Slouch

    Roid Rage at its finest!!

  • Tremendous Slouch

    That was supposed to be a reply to the Brett basher!!

  • Internet Random

    Two tips that have served me well in life:

    1. Don’t eat yellow snow.

    2. Don’t feed trolls.

    • @cubsfantroy

      I wish I had known about number 1 a lot sooner in life.

    • MichiganGoat

      what about passive aggressive feeding ;)

  • bloctoad

    If the Roids Boys make it in then All Time Hits Leader Pete Rose deserves his long overdue reinstatement and Hall enshrinement.

    • Internet Random

      Because taking performance enhances = gambling on MLB games?

      • Internet Random

        enhancers

        • Boogens

          At least in Pete Rose’s cases it’s possible to delineate when he “cheated” from the roiders. He was managing the Reds at the time he was nailed for gambling, so his accomplishments as a player, and the all-time hits leader, weren’t called into question. That can’t be said of the roiders.

          • Internet Random

            “at the time he was nailed”

            … your words.

            But in any event, taking PEDs is still not the same as gambling on MLB games. So I’m not buying the assertion that, if you let a PED users in, you have to let guys who gamble on MLB games in.

            • Internet Random

              I really, really want that effin’ edit button back.

              • http://www.bleachernation.com Brett

                And I really want people to proof read before they click ‘comment’ …

                (I kid, I kid. I’m actually looking to see if the new WordPress update makes the edit functionality available again. Don’t get your hopes up.)

                • Internet Random

                  Of course now I can’t resist pointing out that proofread is one word.

                  • Internet Random

                    Deep down, you want that edit button on that wall.

                    • http://www.bleachernation.com Brett

                      Bad news: still missing the functionality.

                      (You’ll note that other WordPress-based sites don’t have edit buttons either, unless they use a third-party commenting system, which I’m not yet willing to do. If I’d never had it here in the first place, it might never have come up …)

                    • Internet Random

                      Drat. Thanks for checking.

                      (For the record, I’m not operating under the assumption that you get a whole lot of say in WordPress’s development.)

                • OCCubFan

                  “And I really want people to proof read before they click ‘comment’ …”

                  So do I. Then I might be able to make sense out of what they write.

            • MichiganGoat

              I don’t know why Rose is always brought up in the PED debate. There is one very specific difference- ROSE AGREED TO A LIFETIME BAN. Rose signed and agreed to the terms of being banned from baseball. If Sosa agreed to a lifetime ban there would be no conversation about the HOF.

              • Scotti

                Rose agreed to a lifetime ban from MLB. The Hall was not a part of that agreement since the Hall is not run in any shape, or form, by MLB–he could be elected to the Hall while still banned by MLB. IMO, Rose counted on getting elected despite the ban. Charlie Hustle miscalculated the media’s affection for him.

                • MichiganGoat

                  I’ll look into it but I thought the ban blocked him from ever being ballot eligible.

                  • MichiganGoat

                    From Wikipedia
                    ” In 1991, the Baseball Hall of Fame formally voted to ban those on the “permanently ineligible” list from induction”

                    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_Rose

                    There are still some that write his name in but it wouldn’t matter because of this decision.

                  • DarthHater

                    The HOF, by its own policy, bans from the HOF anyone who is on MLB’s permanently ineligible list, which includes Rose.

                    • MichiganGoat

                      Jinx you owe me a coke

                    • DarthHater

                      I thought goats preferred Mountain Dew?

                    • MichiganGoat

                      This goat prefers a DIPA

                    • DarthHater

                      Dual Input Phase Accumulator?

                    • MichiganGoat

                      Double India Pale Ale – droooooool

            • Boogens

              “at the time he was nailed”

              … your words.

              Internet Random, I have no idea of what you’re getting at. I’m not arguing that Pete Rose didn’t gamble on baseball. All I’m saying is that Rose’s offense came after he was done playing and his numbers weren’t inflated by his form of cheating (i.e. breaking the basball bylaws). On the other hand, the number for the roid users were significantly inflated by their cheating so why should they get the benefit of the doubt for the HOF consideration when enshrinement is a privilege, not a birthright?

              • http://www.worldseriesdreaming.com dabynsky

                “at the time he was nailed”

                I am guessing he was going for the euphemism of using nailed as another word for sex.

              • hansman1982

                Pete rose and shoeless joe Jackson will never ever never be in the hall of game or the same reason. Lifetime ban.

                Hell, I have a better chance of getting in than they do.

                • http://www.bleachernation.com Brett

                  If Shoeless Joe had a lifetime ban, shouldn’t he be eligible now?

                  • hansman1982

                    He still on double secret probation.

                  • mudge

                    It was a two-century ban.

                  • DarthHater

                    I believe the technical phrase is “permanently ineligible.”

                • Carew

                  In all seriousness, I believe Shoeless Joe Jackson should be in the HOF

                  • Timmy

                    Me too, also Pete Rose and all the steroid users. They simply have no proof and owners and sportswriters were complicit in it. What a joke of a charade. Put some standards in order and then judge from them on about it.

                    • MichiganGoat

                      Again Rose agreed to his ban he agreed to terms of the ban, so it’s not the same.

                    • Scotti

                      Timmy, Big Mac admitted he did roids. There is gobs of evidence for Bonds and Clemens. While I find it hard to believe that Palmeiro would have ingested the particular steroid that he tested positive for (a very harsh and low brow roid that is VERY detectable), he did test positive. Manny wasn’t just being Manny when he tested for an estrogen lowering drug–he was trying to avoid boobs (a side effect of steroid use).

                      Regardless of certain teams being complicit (no teams provided it but teams like OAK, StL and BOS certainly turned a blind on on their clubhouses) the PLAYERS doped up. When it comes time for the front offices and managers of those teams to get elected to the Hall then THEY should be on the hot seat.

                    • hansman1982

                      The players were just following orders then?

                    • Scotti

                      ?

                • hansman1982

                  dang iphone…

              • Internet Random

                “I have no idea of what you’re getting at.”

                What I’m getting at:
                Just because he didn’t get caught until he was only managing doesn’t mean that he didn’t gamble on MLB games before that.

  • @cubsfantroy

    I wish I had known about number 1 a lot sooner in life.

  • Fastball

    If all the other big name PED’s associated players are going to get in some day then Sosa will be right there with them. They should actually just put them all in together at the same time. Then if the purists don’t want to go watch the induction that’s fine. It only screws up 1 hall of fame induction ceremony vs many in ensuing years. I can’t hold a grudge against any of these players. It was an era in baseball and you can’t banish everyone in an era. So these guys were better than everyone else during that era. Okay, they would have been better than everyone else in that era if there were no PED’s. I like Sosa and always will. I don’t care what other think about him. He was my favorite player and I loved the excitement he brought to the game and to being a Cubs fan during his playing days with the Cubbies. He was one of the most visible players in baseball for 3 or 4 years. Yep he had a big head and was a pain in the ass I’m sure. I don’t care about any of that. The Cubs and the Chicago Media made him that way. When he got to be too big for them they got pissed and beat him down. That’s life. If I could vote the cat in I would. Just my opinion.

  • Fastball

    Baseball ownership and all it’s management didn’t give a crap if players did steroids. The game was in the toilet after the strike. They would have let aliens play baseball if it put people in the stands and sold jersey’s etc. I don’t just blame players. It was the management who condoned it and probably promoted it. They definitely did nothing to prevent it. Until it became a public issue it was not even looked at. Then all the sudden there was a public outcry over roids because high school athletes and younger were using them. Then baseball had to take a stance. What better way for the owners to save face. Throw their players under the buss, take the we have been enlightened by God and now we are going to be Righteous. For me it’s all a big joke so treat it like one. Those era players were playing by a set of unwritten rules and it’s wrong for people like sports writers to sit in judgement of anyone. They are mostly biased in what ever way suits them any given day of the week.

  • Crazyhorse

    And just to be clear – This site is an Awesome site, Its Cub Site and i feel Brett does a great service in supplying Cubs news, rumours and Opinions. He lets his readers duke it out from time to time. What does Brett provide Cub fans —– conversation———— and that is awesome. I may not agree with him and i am not afraid to express it from time to time. Yet he is awesome- I respect his dedication

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