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rick renteria padresIn some ways, the Cubs’ managerial search has been far too boring since Joe Girardi returned to the Yankees, so it’s nice to have a little drama injected. I kid, mostly.

  • Although the Cubs are still awaiting the opportunity to interview Red Sox bench coach Torey Lovullo, but sources tell Dave Kaplan that a resolution should be coming, one way or another, over the next couple days. In the interim, the Cubs could head back out to California to meet with Rick Renteria once again, and Kaplan believes that Renteria remains in the lead for the job.
  • As I’ve thought about the latest Cubs/Red Sox dust-up, I’ve gotten more and more rankled. Even if it’s true that the Cubs and Red Sox had a hardline agreement that the Cubs would not hire any Red Sox personnel for three years after Epstein came to the Cubs, Lovullo was not a member of the Red Sox organization at the time that agreement was made, meaning that he was not the kind of employee whom the Red Sox were worried about losing when the agreement was contemplated in the first place. You make these kind of non-compete agreements so that the leaving party doesn’t exercise undue influence over his former compatriots – were a specific connection not required between the leaving party and those other employees, all teams could simply request of all other teams that they not hire away any employees. That’s not in the spirit of a fruitful and progressive MLB, and I’d like to think that MLB would take issue with the Red Sox trying to enforce this agreement in this manner.
  • Separately, I’m really, really rankled by Red Sox ownership and president Larry Lucchino, if they are indeed withholding permission in the way that has been reported (i.e., partly because of a wounded relationship between those men and Epstein). The organization is seriously going to forbid an employee from the opportunity – what might be a literal once-in-a-lifetime opportunity – to manage the Chicago Cubs because of some personal animosity that has nothing whatsoever to do with that employee? How can anyone in the Red Sox organization support that kind of thing, especially when they know it’s not like Lovullo is going to be promoted in-house any time soon? How can they expect Lovullo to just be a good soldier and say, “Yes, sirs, I understand that you’re preventing me from this life-changing opportunity because of some BS you had with Epstein two years ago when I wasn’t even a part of the organization. Thanks for thinking of me!” It’s disgusting, and I would be appalled if the Cubs were pulling something like this. Here’s hoping the Red Sox do the right thing, grant permission for the interview, and we subsequently learn that this was all just a big misunderstanding …
  • Dave Kaplan says he fully expects Chris Bosio to be retained as the Cubs’ pitching coach, regardless of the managerial decision, and the Cubs may look into bringing Henry Blanco on board as a coach, as well.
  • Kevin

    Heisenberg

  • TSB

    “Mr. Luvollo, we want you to join our Red Sox team; however, we have an agreement that you cant at a later date work for the Chicago Cubs. Is that OK with you?” Answer: “yes.”

    Alternate: Hey, you didn’t tell me that when I signed on with you Mr. Cherington! This contract is invalid! I’m going to sue!” Than again, it will still mean I’m not going to the Cubs because it will take a year to navigate the courts.”
    Either way, No Luvollo to the Cubs. Red Sox win!

  • Mike F

    Might as well howl at the moon, the cubs are on exceptionally thin ice. Non-compete clauses are quite common and always find friends in the courts. The only question is if by agreement here this particular coach was brought under the umbrella, and I have little doubt in a court a judge would side with the RS.

    I think the more easy argument for the Cubs is one on bad personnel to block a coach, but they have little legal argument.

  • Die hard

    The FO is still going over the spreadsheets of the saber stats on each candidate as to for instance how many times does he belch between innings when ahead vs behind 1 run vs 2 runs… Leave no stat behind for this group of dysfunctional nano nerds

  • Cardfan

    I have enjoyed this site for many years – since my first intro on “Why the 2009 Cardinals will Suck”. Made smart & stupid comments, been the recipient of smart & stupid comments, and still long for a robust and meaningful Cards-Cubs rivalry that has relevance in late September every year. I used to anxiously await the Cards-Cubs series. I didn’t this year. I don’t next year.

    Whether you want to hear it or not, your organization and many of its followers are adrift in a rudderless boat. It is evidenced by results, projections, and some of the ridiculous whining comments on this board that pervade most every article. Complaining about the Red Sox taking out an ad in the StL paper after they kicked our butts in the WS – come on! There are some great insights on this site – they are drowning, though, in the noise of the immature idiots whose idea of being a devoted fan is borne merely from the desire to tear everything else down around the object of their devotion.

    It even exists too often in the articles themselves, albeit more subtely. Whether you want to admit it or not, Mr. Epstien was not brought to the Cubs in with hugs and kisses on departure and arrival. Not sure if this falls on him/on Boston FO/little of both – but it exists. At some point you have to be willing to accept the price you paid for your man and if it means you can’t hire from his former employer for a set period of time – so be it. Done. GTF over it and move along. Not an uncommon outcome in a highly competitive environment or if significant animosity exists. Given the AL/NL separation, one has to assume the latter.

    You should be turning your sights inward and asking some tough questions. The Cubs should be much farther along right now in rebuilding a team and a culture. The evidence currently available would suggest that Mr Epstien, et. al. would requires a rather strong starting hand to make any money at poker. Go ahead and argue the small details here and there, but the results thus far have been incredibly underwhelming. And please don’t point to a farm system ranking in the absence of a culture of cultivation and success (KC, Seattle, Minnesota, etc.).

    Feel free to fire back if it makes you feel better. I have stated my desire. It is not to tear down the Cubs – I would prefer quite the opposite. And you should not be surprised that, if the stars align and the pieces fall in place that deliver a Chicago Cubs World Series in the future, you may wake up and open the Tribune to find an ad from the Cardinals congratulating the Cubs and the city of Chicago on their success…

    • SH

      Best Fans™

      • When the Music’s Over

        That whole write-up was one giant pat back on the back. Love it.

    • http://www.bleachernation.com Brett

      “You should be turning your sights inward and asking some tough questions. The Cubs should be much farther along right now in rebuilding a team and a culture. The evidence currently available would suggest that Mr Epstien, et. al. would requires a rather strong starting hand to make any money at poker. Go ahead and argue the small details here and there, but the results thus far have been incredibly underwhelming. And please don’t point to a farm system ranking in the absence of a culture of cultivation and success (KC, Seattle, Minnesota, etc.).”

      This is literally never discussed. Only the Red Sox, a bench coach, and the Cardinals. That’s all we discuss.

      This is impressively useless feedback from someone who used to be fairly thoughtful and insightful. Instead, you’ve fancied up a version of “unless you’re steaming mad that a comprehensive organizational overhaul didn’t bear fruits in two years, you’re an idiot who just doesn’t get it.”

      • hansman

        It seems to me that Cardfan should be asking his own organization some tough questions considering they had 2 players on their postseason roster they had no intention of using.

        Brilliant! Bravo!

      • JB88

        I like Angry Brett. I imagine him to be sitting in front of the computer and suddenly, slams his fists on the desk, screams “Brett mad!!”, and turns into a raging green blogger.

        • DarthHater

          [img]http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3736/10695557683_32b5e198f3_o.jpg[/img]

      • Cardfan

        If I have fancied up something, it is a “don’t drop to the level of some of your fringe on this site, Brett”. When the whinning rises above the comments into the article, maybe it’s time to pause and take inventory.

        Keep or toss…

        …and I wouldn’t expect to see “fruit” in two years. I would expect a view of the tree growing that would eventually produce fruit. Don’t see it. Don’t expect fruit for the next couple seasons, at least. Unfortunate.

        • http://www.bleachernation.com Brett

          If this article is your example of whining, then I’ll be content to whine. I stand firmly on my grounds on this one.

          Other than this, I’m not even sure what there has been to whine about. And if your catalog of article whining has one entry, it’s a bit of a thin basis on which to start dropping truth bombs.

          • Cardfan

            n=2
            you linked to a previous article, as well. Maybe still too thin. Consider it more of a water balloon than a bomb.

        • http://www.bleachernation.com Brett

          And, as for the substance …

          “I would expect a view of the tree growing that would eventually produce fruit. Don’t see it. ”

          Then you aren’t looking. If the Cardinal tree is your basis for judgment, you’re not going to see much of a forest anywhere. They don’t all look like that.

          • Cardfan

            Whether you believe it or not, I am not looking at this in comparison to the Cardinals. I live in San Diego and have a front row seat to franchise futility. Supposedly talented people with valiant efforts have failed to move the needle. While it is rare, if not impossible, to have high quality ownership, FO leadership, team management, team personnel, and farm system firing on all cylinders, when none of these functions is detrimental to the other, good things follow. Even in that case, though, a resignation to mediocrity puts the brakes on any sustainable success.

            I hope you land a great coach. I see what Farrell did with the Sox and I greatly respect that. When Valentine came out and said that he could have done the same thing with the changes that were made, I laughed my tail off. It just shows the impact of correctly addressing one of the important puzzle pieces. Maybe I am missing something, but I am not seeing it.

            • Randy

              Here is a thought for the day. Why don’t you go away and worry about the genius Cardinals. Maybe there is no site for you dumbasses

              • Cardfan

                well done!

            • mjhurdle

              “I see what Farrell did with the Sox and I greatly respect that.”

              Like the time he tried out three other players at closer until finally being forced to turn to Uehara, and then luck out with an amazing year?

              • Cardfan

                So you think Bobby V. could have done the same with the team this year?

                • mjhurdle

                  Not at all. I was just wondering exactly what you were pointing to as what you sawFarrell do.
                  Did he help Lackey get healthy? or Elsbury and Ortiz stay healthy?
                  What exactly did you see him do, Besides not be the negative influence that Bobby V was?

                  • Cardfan

                    He led. He didn’t take up space in a dugout. He led.

                    We are so caught up in the metrics that we fail to appreciate the intangible qualities of true leadership. With a respected leader is at the helm, players dig deeper and the results come.

                    • On The Farm

                      “With a respected leader is at the helm, players dig deeper and the results come.”

                      Correct. The only difference from the 2012 Red Sox and the 2013 Red Sox is who the manager was. The only reason the 2012 Sox didn’t win a World Series is because they didn’t have a respected leader to make them dig deep.

                    • DocPeterWimsey

                      That’s just silly. The Sox received for free (the costs were sunk, after all) three quality starters in their rotation that they didn’t have in 2012 (or the last month of 2011). They didn’t respond to Farrell’s “leadership”: they simply were healthy.

                      Bobby V. has had teams do very well under him and teams do very poorly: that falsifies the idea that he has any major effect on individual player performance. Now, I’m no Bobby V. fan – he’s too hung up on intangibles and he probably will cost a team a game or two a year with dumb sacrifice bunts – but, yes, I am pretty sure that this year’s Sox team would have made post-season with him at the helm. The team would have had less fun doing so, and maybe they win only 93 or 94 games, but they still make post-season.

                    • mjhurdle

                      There are many many variables that were different between the 2012 Red Sox and the 2013 Red Sox.
                      By your own admission, you cannot measure the effects of the manager, or leadership, on a club (“intangible”).
                      So how can you say with any certainty that the manager is what was responsible, and not the players?

                    • Blublud

                      I honestly don’t think the Sox make the playoffs with Bobby V.

                    • Cardfan

                      Dusty. Baker.

                      With the right manager, the Reds have one or more WS rings in the last several years. All the pieces are there…absent true leadership.

                      If Dusty were a leader, I strongly doubt that Aramis Ramirez and Moises Alou are booking their flights home immediately after Game 6 in 2003.

                    • DocPeterWimsey

                      It would have been tough for Valentine to stop them. There are no starters that Farrell played that Valentine would have benched. The starting pitching was extremely good, which greatly limited the amount of bullpen selection that was necessary. (Valentine is not particularly bad at that, either.) Remember, the big three of Lester, Lackey and Bucholz were not available to Valentine in 2012.

                      Now, the Sox would not have had the Frat House clubhouse that they had this year if Bobby V. was still around. However, just as that Frat House was not responsible for the team losing in 2011 (having the top 5 starters hurt was just a little more important than that), it didn’t help them win this year.

                      Again, I’m no fan of Valentine – he is too hung up intangibles and other superficialities for my taste – but as he showed in the 1990′s, give him a good team, and he’ll win. (And as he showed in other years, give him a bad team, and he’ll lose, too!)

                    • MightyBear

                      Which is why I hate American League baseball and the DH.

                    • MightyBear

                      That was for Doc’s last post of the Sox being an auto pilot team. Why is it I can’t reply directly to that post?

                    • hansman

                      The only real change for that is adding:

                      If 6th or 7th and pitcher batting in a close game, replace pitcher for pinch hitter, start warming up appropriate handed MRP.

                    • hansman

                      “Why is it I can’t reply directly to that post?”

                      After a certain point, the replies just stack on top of each other since the comments are running out of room.

                  • Blublud

                    The arguement that managers don’t matter is just plain dumb. What did Ferrell do that Bobby V didn’t? Won a WS. I’m willing to bet that if you take Ferrell off that team and put Sveum there, the Red Sox would have struggled. They would have been better then the Cubs because of talent, but then again, the Cubs would have been better then the Cubs had they had a better manager. Bobby V is in the same boat as Sbuem.

                    • On The Farm

                      I don’t think you will find many people that say managers don’t matter, but to say that the players dug deeper and we are too caught up in sabermetrics to realize how much of an impact Farrell had seems silly.

                      There was a lot of factors that make the 2013 Boston Red Sox better than the 2012 Boston Red Sox. One of them is replacing Valentine with Farrell. But, that isn’t even the most important change.

                    • Blublud

                      I agree with all that. But there are some people who think the Sox would have won without a manager. Managers do make players better, and good managers make teams better. I’m also willing to be that a manager makes more then a 4 game difference, as has been suggested.

                    • Patrick W.

                      It’s possible, maybe, that a manager can only in aggregate have a negative effect on a team. That is, the best managers are the ones who don’t get in the way of talent, but the worst managers can cause real damage. The resulting is that if you have say 5 good, competent managers it doesn’t matter much which one you choose, but if you choose somebody who is a bad manager in general (not just in the baseball sense) you’ve mad a terrible decision.

                      Instead of thinking about it as bell curve, where there are really bad managers on one end, and really good managers on the other, and a heap of guys in the middle, think of it more like an hourglass where the ceiling is flat without much difference between each other for the managers in the top section and not much difference between the managers in the bottom section, with a flat floor. The middle bottleneck is talent.

                    • Blublud

                      I disagree. Good managers know when to pinch hit and when not. When to hit and run and when not to. When or when not to give a 3-0 green light. Defensive shifts, pitch outs, when to hold runners, when to steal, playing in, playing deep, sac bunt, when to change pitchers, when a player needs a rest, what order to place hitters to maximize abilities and several other things. Those things are often the difference between being average and good. It may not make individual stats look much better, but it is the difference between losing and winning.

                    • DocPeterWimsey

                      Those add up to very little over the course of a season. Moreover, there is zero reason to think that Valentine would have done these things worse than Farrell did. The Sox are very much an “automatic pilot” team: you stick your starters out there, replace the starting pitcher in the 7th or 8th with the setup guy, and then the closer, then go drink a beer. Rinse and repeat.

                    • YourResidentJag

                      So, to sum up Cherington didn’t really blunder by hiring Valentine (if you believe that) since a large part of that core of his team was injured.

                    • hansman

                      “Good managers know when to”

                      And you know what’s funny, a lot of fans know when to do certain things in ballgames too.

                      In game management, really isn’t that challenging especially with all of the data that most clubs give their managers.

                      Managing the players, that is challenging.

                    • terencemann

                      Ferrell is a good manager but, like Patrick said, the difference between the best manager and an average manager isn’t a lot when you average it out over the course of a few seasons.

                • MightyBear

                  You people are too long winded.

        • DarthHater

          [img]http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5514/10695530485_4f9363290c_o.jpg[/img]

        • Norm

          If the fruit comes from the farm system, isn’t having a top 5 farm system evidence of the tree that will produce the fruit?

          • Cardfan

            In keeping with the farm analogy…If I owned the nicest tractor in the county, would it make me a great farmer? Nope. Merely a piece in the puzzle.

            • DarthHater

              “If I owned the nicest tractor in the county, would it make me a great farmer?”

              Nope. Merely an expert spewer of manure.

            • hansman

              Odds are, if you could afford the nicest tractor in the county, you are doing something right. Those things are freakin expensive.

              Although, at this point, we are chasing the goalpost at the end of the rainbow.

              • DarthHater

                Nah, the least successful farmer each year gets to pick the nicest tractor for the next year.

                • hansman

                  No, they get to pick the nicest concept tractor that John Deere is thinking about making. Some get a tractor, others get a piece of paper saying they once got to pick that tractor.

              • On The Farm

                Agreed, I don’t see any farmers who only have 600 acres, or don’t know what they are doing with the nice, big new tractors.

                Now if you told me you owned the most land in the county, I could see a better parallel (note no comparison is perfect), but based on how much land prices are going for, and how expensive it is to rent farm land its getting harder and harder to break even. So just because you have the most land (or prospects) doesn’t mean that you have the best farm. Your fields could be washed out, not get enough rain (prospects flaming out due to K rate/BB rate/etc, get injured), but if you do have the most land (prospects) you greatly increase your chances of producing a good crop.

            • When the Music’s Over

              Technology in terms of farming is a gigantic piece of the puzzle, not just one that can be casually discarded in order to make a poor analogy.

              If you are saying one farmer has only a slightly incremental advantage in technology, then yes, experience is likely the more dominating indicator of success.

              Moving back to baseball, if the quality of the farm system is the basis of sustained success in the major leagues, than I’m all for the Cubs pouring heavy resources into building that up the best they can in the short run. Do I disagree with the complete abandonment of the major league squad for going on three years now, yep, but that doesn’t mean that the route they’re going has been a complete failure, which appears to be your whole point.

              Of course once you have your base firmly in place, factors such as experience, luck, quality of coaches, etc are what makes the difference between 80 and 90+ win teams. However, if you completely ignore building up the base, it’s like farming with hoes and dancing for rain, rather than farming with state of the art equipment and utilizing irrigation canals.

            • josh ruiter

              No is correct. However if you are planting, weeding, watering, and harvesting all with your bare hands are you going to produce the highest yield? And will you be capable of farming the most acres? NOPE, Gotta have good equipment as a key to the engine of farming success. If you spend all your time at the repair shop, you are not getting much done. If you spend all your time at the FA table, you aren’t growing your own crop. If you aren’t well aware of the outlying factors in the crop, pesiticides, predators, preferable weather, you are going to end up with a lackluster crop that doesn’t reach its potential. You get the grain that fits the land, you have the equipment that fits the grain, you as the farmer have to evaluate the whole picture before springtime and planting begins.
              #farmknowledgebomb #cardsfanshouldknowbetter #SanDiegoidiocracy

        • Randy

          Card Fan- Go find a Deadbird site. Oh yea probably not one.

    • DarthHater

      Who is Mr. Epstien?

      • Cubbie Blues

        My best guess is Michael Anthony Epstein.

    • bbmoney

      Well that was completely pointless and included no meaningful insights of any kind. At best that’s a narrow minded analyses with pompous overtones which included no real facts to support any of the opinions, views, or really boring/spent comparisons offered.

      Other than that….riveting stuff, please post again soon.

      • MightyBear

        He/She should run for Congress.

    • Tommy

      Thanks for the insight. Still recovering from that World Series loss and looking for an outlet I see.

  • Cheryl

    Sorry Lovullo, you might have been good, but no choice but to move on. This is getting old fast. Renteria might be better off elsewhere too given the way this has played out.

    • YourResidentJag

      Well, again I would say there are other candidates out there, but the timetable is getting too close for a hire, so Renteria just might have to do.

  • http://what? brygo

    Really? What goes around comes around. The Cubs screwed the Red Sox over Epstien, The promised, agreed upon “significant” compensation proved to be a journeyman middle reliever. Whats that old song by the Who, “wont get screwed again”. I dont blame the world champs at all for playing hard ball with the winless wonders of Chi town.

    • TWC

      Lulz. Apparently this article hit the BoSox fan sites and the more active trolls have nothing better to do. Douchebags.

      • DarthHater

        Wish I knew who this “Epstien” person is that everyone keeps talking about.

        • JB88

          It’s the “i before e” crowd making the rounds in full force …

          • hansman

            I before e except when it’s not. Such as after Epst.

          • DarthHater

            ‘I’ before ‘E,’ except after idiocy.

        • MichiganGoat

          Isn’t he a character on Boardwalk Empire?

          • MightyBear

            Welcome Back Kotter

    • chrisfchi

      That song by The Who is actually “Won’t be fooled again” but nice try

      • MightyBear

        Won’t Get Fooled Again.

        • chrisfchi

          Absolute failure on my part. Thanks bear for correcting that.

      • http://what? brygo

        yes, that was a pun…but to the larger point…Im not a Who fan

  • http://what? brygo

    So the Cubs are screwing up a relatively simple process? Stunning. They usually are the model of excellence in everything they do. Theo thought he was clever at trying to undermine our process two years ago, but hiring Dale S when we were still considering him. How’d that work out. Btw, after years of bitching about the Red Sox team president Larry L “meddling” with the baseball operations side of things…I sure see Theo’s name in bb ops stuff in Chicago than I do the “gm” Jed Hoyer. what gives?

    • http://www.bleachernation.com Brett

      It’s likely that you see Epstein’s name involved in baseball operations in Chicago because he’s the Cubs’ President of Baseball Operations.

      Hope that helps.

    • Randy

      Why don’t you go away and get a life.

    • Voice of Reason

      I quit reading after the first sentence.

      Anyone who thinks that hiring a manager is a simple process, no matter what line of business, doesn’t get any more of my time

    • hansman

      “Btw, after years of bitching about the Red Sox team president Larry L “meddling” with the baseball operations side of things…I sure see Theo’s name in bb ops stuff in Chicago than I do the “gm” Jed Hoyer. what gives?”

      This sentence makes no sense. Although maybe the ellipses means that you intentionally left out a lot of fluff. Generally, you try to leave in words that help the idea seem coherent.

    • Patrick W.

      Are you simultaneously arguing that the Cubs are slimy for hiring Dale Sveum when the Red Sox were still deciding on him, and apparently would have chosen him if not for the slimy Cubs swooping in, and that hiring Dale Sveum (after deciding on him) was monumentally stupid?

      How would that have worked?
      Cubs: hey Red Sox, we’re considering Dale Sveum
      Red Sox: wait wait wait, WE’RE considering Dale Sveum still…you can’t hire him yet!
      Cubs: because you might hire him?
      Red Sox: yes, after we consider him some more.
      Cubs: you can’t hire him!
      Red Sox: why?
      Cubs: because we’re still considering him.

  • Die hard

    FO looking for mgr akin to the blind men and the elephant story

    • DarthHater

      Take your anti-blind bigotry somewhere else.

  • http://what? brygo

    Theo is team president. Hoyer is general manager. In a standard mode of ops, the team president handles more of the business side of things, while the gm handles the baseball side of things. Ask Theo…this was his primary bitch in Boston. Larry L, team prez, had a hand in the baseball side of things and boy wonder’s ego couldnt handle it. And btw, hiring a manager is an important step, but given there is only one other team searching for a manager and you essentially have the field of candidates to yourselves and have been looking for more than a month…its bordering on circus level. Quit raiding the Sox and find your personnel elsewhere

    • On The Farm

      Except Theo is President of BASEBALL Operations. Not President of Business Operations.

      The difference between the two titles is that one deals with the baseball aspects, and the other deals with the business aspects of the franchise.

  • http://what? brygo

    Can I assume Salty, Drew, Napoli and Ellsbury top Theo’s free agent shopping list

    • Fishin Phil

      You know what happens when you assume.

    • terencemann

      Ellsbury is the only guy who could be considered one of Theo’s guys. Salty was a nice trade for them but I’m sure Epstein would have sent him away in heartbeat for a player he wanted more.

  • http://what? brygo

    So Mr Hoyer parks cars?

    • On The Farm

      Based on your understanding of how the Cubs baseball operations work, yes.

    • DarthHater

      No he cleans the urinals. I’m surprised you haven’t met him.

  • http://what? brygo

    I wonder how many times a day, after watching the endless replays on MLB network of the Red Sox world championship run, Theo bangs his head against the wall saying “wtf was I thinking”

    • terencemann

      Probably zero times because he reportedly did not get along with that ownership group and the Cubs are paying him more money with zero expectations for the major league team so long as the minor league prospects continue to dazzle scouts.

      • YourResidentJag

        Hmm….really.

        • On The Farm

          I too find this interesting. It’s almost as if Ricketts told Theo, “Hey, I don’t care if the MLB team is bad therefore make me miss out on all that revenue I could be generating by having a good team. As, long as we are continually in the running for top farm system, your doing a fine job!”

          • YourResidentJag

            Well, maybe @terenceman wants him to emulate Terry Ryan ;)

          • terencemann

            Yes, I think Epstein is carrying out a plan he and Ricketts agreed upon to build a young talented team that would form the core of a competitive team around the time Wrigley was scheduled to be renovated and the Ricketts could negotiate a new media deal with the WGN rights, if that helps clarify things.

            In other words, Epstein is doing what he’s paid to do and there’s no rush for him as long as he continues to add minor league players who project to be first tier major league players and he gets to increase the payroll over the next few years.

            You can compare that to Boston where they want to win the world series every year or else it’s a lost season and he’d still be working for an insufferable ownership group.

            • http://what? brygo

              Every team needs a bridge year…but the Cubs have had a bridge century. Not to rub it in, but most in our organization viewed 2013 as a bridge year.

    • DarthHater

      I wonder how many time a day you act like an anal pore. Probably a lot.

  • http://what? brygo

    Zero expectations for the Cubs? Well he is certainly fulfilling that obligation. He did not get along with the team president, Larry L because he felt Larry was meddling too much in the baseball side of things…things he felt should be handled by the teams gm. This, sir, is exactly what he is doing to Jed Hoyer now

    • Fishin Phil

      Larry, is that you??

    • On The Farm

      Since you clearly don’t understand the difference between what Larry Lucchino and Theo Epstein do. Here you go:

      http://www.mlb.com/team/front_office.jsp?c_id=bos
      http://cubs.mlb.com/team/front_office.jsp?c_id=chc

      In the first link you will see how Lucchino is President/CEO over all of the Boston Red Sox. If you look at the second link you will notice, Theo is at the top of the Baseball Operations. Now, Kenny Crane is the President of Business Operations. Hope that clears that up for you.

      • http://what? brygo

        you know as well as I that Theo was given the “bogus” title of President so that the Cubs could claim he was getting a promotion in leaving Boston and it was not a lateral move. Bottom line is he is the Cubs GM. Hoyer is his 2nd in command. Just a particularly slimey move by the Cubs. Not surprising, but you can see now why the Sox might now have little or no interest in dealing with them

        • BT

          At least we can be sure you are coming into this with an open mind free of any preconceptions about the slimy Cubs. Your opinion is very important to me.

        • On The Farm

          Except even though he was given a “fake” promotion, compensation was still given to the Red Sox (its not Theo’s fault that the Cubs and Boston agreed upon Chris Carpenter as the compensation). Oh and to assume that it is a fake position just because one franchise doesn’t do it is also false. Not all business are run the same and if the Cubs thought a President of Baseball Operations and GM were necessary then that is their business plan.

          • http://what? brygo

            Revisionist history much? The Cubs ownership committed to provide the Sox with”significant compensation” for Theo. Granted that is a subjective term, but I think we can all agree that a journeyman middle reliever is not significant. Selig was sick of the issue dragging on and forced the issue. Our mistake was believing that the Cubs would act in good faith on the verbal agreement after we allowed Theo to leave. We were burned. But, payback is a bitch. Enjoy Renteria as your new “two years and out” manager.

            • hansman

              For a FO member who is receiving a promotion? Sending Elliot Soto would have been significant compensation. Unless you think your Red Sox were owed Garza and Castro.

            • On The Farm

              Right well the Red Sox sent a 1.5 WAR SS to the Jays for Farrell, sending a 13th rank team prospect (especially one who averaged a 96.5 MPH fastball) was actually pretty fair. Carpenter had potential, but injuries derailed his career. Again, it is not Theo’s fault that the Red Sox picked a RP prospect who had pretty good upside, but got injured right away.

              • MichiganGoat

                And the Farrell move was a lateral move, THEO IS NOT THE CUBS GM. Just as Lovello isn’t being considered for the bench coach job.

            • MichiganGoat

              So here we are still butthurt over Theo leaving and not getting a quality player in return. Getting a single penny for giving Theo a promotion was generous getting a player THAT THE RED SOX AGREED TO is flat out generous. Now STFU and enjoy your title instead of still being sad about the Theo divorce, your team has done okay. You should still be celebrating instead of lamenting about your ex-wife Theo. mkaythxbye

              • Patrick W.

                good thing I can’t read this.

                • DarthHater

                  Yes, now you are spared from having to even think about “the word that shall not be named.”

                • MichiganGoat

                  So much stupid ass shit clogging up this site.

                • TWC

                  Damn. I forgot to install that plugin.

              • http://what? brygo

                dont get me wrong, im glad we dumped theo. if a guy doesnt wanna be here (see Carl Crawford) it isnt going to be good for anyone involved. We traded a fairly decent player for Farrell. The guy was our starting shortstop the prior year. And there was a difference. We rescued John Farrell and brought him home. You took Theo from an annual world series contender to a 100 year ongoing re-building franchise

                • Stinky Pete

                  That’s what I can’t figure out. If Theo did all of these horrible things to your franchise, why so upset about losing him?

                  • MichiganGoat

                    Codependency?

                    • On The Farm

                      We need a picture of Gandalf: “He loves and hates Theo, just as he loves and hates himself…”

                • On The Farm

                  You are right. The situations are completely different. The Boston FO (who passed on Farrell to go with Valentine) rescued Farrell. What makes the situation so different with the Cubs is that they forced Theo into coming to Chicago. Theo, who had already built the foundation for future success in one franchise, shouldn’t want to seek out a new challenge.

                  And way to never mind the fact that Boston had Jose Iglaisis ready to step in at SS and the best SS prospect in baseball to open the season when you talk about giving up your everyday short stop! Oh and lets ignore the fact Theo got promoted and Farrell made a lateral move (Oops forgot you aren’t very good at Organizational Charts).

                  • http://what? brygo

                    We didnt pass on Farrell in favor of Valentine. We tried and were denied talking to Farrell. He was only one year into his three year deal with Toronto, and they didnt want to let him go (what a difference a season makes). Stick to the facts

            • cubfanbob

              the only payback is keeping your bench coach from a promotion

              • http://what? brygo

                Promotion? 2nd in command and manager in waiting and very high profile job as bench coach for the world champion Boston Red Sox; or captain on the Titantic of baseball for a couple of seasons, tarnishing your reputation with the stench of 90 loss seasons.

                • On The Farm

                  Implying that he is manager in waiting to Boston is ridiculous. It means you assume that Farrell is going somewhere soon. Not only that most other clubs allow their bench coaches to interview for manager positions. For one the opportunity to be a manager doesn’t come a long very often. Two, are you also implying that Luvollo isn’t smart enough to make his own decisions? If he wants to manager the 2014 Cubs he should be given the opportunity to make the decision for himself. But apparently the Boston ownership and FO knows best and is protecting their asset. You are delusional. If Luvollo didn’t want the job or wasn’t the least bit interested he would have come out and said so already.

                  • http://what? brygo

                    again are you all aware of the dozens of reports including from Ben himself that state the Cubs have not asked the red sox for permission to talk to Lovollo? you gotta ask first

                • Patrick W.

                  Wait, if he’s good enough to be a manager in waiting he’s not good enough to win more than 72 games a season?

                  • On The Farm

                    Well that’s only because in Boston he is working for the greatest organization in the world.

                • cubfanbob

                  You would think Red Sox fans would support the struggle of another franchise like the Cubs after experiencing losing for 80 plus years and all the heartache along the way.

                  Going from the Boston bench to the manager of the Cub’s is a promotion. I personally feel he would be great on the north side but if it doesnt work out then it doesnt work out but I see no reason why Lovullo shouldnt be allowed to be interviewed. I think we can all agree on that right ?

                • Jason Powers

                  New england clamchowderhead.

                • DarthHater

                  Yea, I guess that’s why Lovullo made the following comments about the Cubs just a few days ago:

                  “I do know there’s a pretty good blueprint in place that’s here, that Theo [Epstein] started.”

                  “I know that he sees that it works, so he can take that same blueprint over to Chicago, and it’s going to work,” Lovullo said. “It’s a matter of time before it works.”

                  And, with specific reference to the Cubs’ managerial opening: “I think that whoever gets to sit in that seat is going to be in a really good situation and one that has stability and a long-term plan in place.”

                  • Fishin Phil

                    Stop trying to disrupt his argument with facts. :)

                  • http://what? brygo

                    my God how gullable are you people. A guy will say anything during the job process. Any of you ever interview for a job? You say whatever you have to say to land the gig. Im not saying Lovullo wouldnt want the job, just saying that he will probably be thankful he didnt get it. Do any of you (be objective) see the Cubs even approaching the competitive level in the next few years? That the drawback. Renteria will have two years. No matter how great a job he does, they will be two losing miserable seasons because of a lack of talent….and he will be gone. You have to remember, when Theo was given the Boston job, we had a pretty solid core of talent to start with.

                    • Fishin Phil

                      Well, at least we know how to spell gullible.

                    • Cubbie Blues

                      No, “you only say whatever you have to say to land the gig” if you aren’t confident in your own abilities and experience. I personally lay everything out on the table, scars and all, during the interview process. I also usually get offered the position once I get the interview. You don’t want to start a new job with your new employer having expectations that will never be met. That’s an easy way to be shown the door soon after entering it.

  • http://what? brygo

    My bad. I shouldnt use the term “baseball operations” when it comes to the Cubs. They are doing something every summer at Wrigley, but it doesnt much resemble fielding a competitive major league baseball team

  • bbmoney

    My favorite is people who can’t figure out how to use the reply button. They’re my favorite.

    • http://what? brygo

      where is this reply button of which you speak? I love people who dont have a leg to stand on in a debate and use diversion tactics such as pointing out sloppy spelling errors or reply button notes

      • On The Farm

        My favorite is how you can’t figure out how what Theo does is different than what Lucchino does.

        • http://what? brygo

          The difference is that Larry seems to do his job well, while Theo (without him) seems a little in over his head. Two managers already? He lobbied hard for Dale S, gave him a dreadful team on the field for two years…and dumped him.

          • On The Farm

            You realize Theo is responsible for the 2007 World Series in its own right correct? Larry may dabble in the baseball operations, but Theo made a lot of the draft decisions that made that team a champion. To say Theo is over his head is laughable. He is doing the same thing is Chicago (creating a very young core of prospects with a MLB target date for the core to arrive around the same time).

            • http://what? brygo

              The key to the 2007 Red Sox: Josh Beckett and Mike Lowell. Both of whom were acquired during Theo’s sabatical from the team. We dont win the series without those guys

              • On The Farm

                And you also don’t win it without Dustin Pedroia, Jon Lester, Papelbon, Ellsbury, Shilling. But yeah, you are right the Josh Beckett and Mike Lowell pretty much were the only reason.

                • http://what? brygo

                  If you credit Theo with the 07 success, please blame the 2011 collapse and the 2012 basement finish with him as well. Crawford and Gonzalez nearly crippled the franchise

                  • YourResidentJag

                    Interesting.

                  • On The Farm

                    Um okay, but only if you admit that Lucchino stuck his nose where it didn’t belong and said sign Crawford and Lackey, because we need to keep winning…..

                    What was it you said about Lucchino is good at what he does? Oh wait I forgot you think Lucchino is perfect.

                    • http://what? brygo

                      Theo signed Crawford and traded for AGon. Those werent Lucchino. Larry signed off on them, but the ownership group was not as enthusiastic about Crawford as Theo was. John Henry even came out when Crawford was still here and said he wasnt in favor of the deal. Theo uses the excuse now that he felt “pressured” to win. A big league GM in a baseball crazy town with a big payroll feeling pressured to win? Someone needs a reality check. Trust me, if the Cubs dont become competitve on the field within the next two years….boy wonders shine will very quickly begin to dull. And NO..you cant have Ben Cherington

              • DocPeterWimsey

                Those were not the sole “keys”: the Sox had many important players that year. Moreover, there is no reason to think that Theo would not have executed the same trade: the same FO people would have been involved, and it’s the kind of trade that he would have made.

                • http://what? brygo

                  Many reports Doc, have indicated that Theo was not a fan of the trade. Its reasonable. I mean we did trade Hanley Ramirez and Annibal Sanchez. However, it got us a world series….something some fans would give their first born for

                  • BT

                    Hey, I see what you did there! Pretty sneaky. But definitely not troll-like at all.

          • roz

            “Two managers already?” Says the fan of the team that hired and fired Bobby Valentine after a single disastrous season.

      • DarthHater

        “where is this reply button of which you speak?”

        Here’s a map:
        [img]http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5525/10698153603_3e0a4339a1_n.jpg[/img]

  • mdavis

    the trolls sure out in full force today huh? my goodness.

    • http://what? brygo

      Not a troll sir. I was a big fan of Theo and Hoyer and the 33 other red sox personnel he has taken in the past two years. Just a little tired of Theo trying to rebuild the Cubs on the backs of the Red Sox. Find your own people. There are many other organizations beyond San Diego and Boston to rape

      • Randy

        Just go away TROLL. Find a Sox site..

        • YourResidentJag

          Well, maybe he needs to pull a Ritchie and go Incognito. :)

      • BT

        He’s not a troll. He’s simply a Red Sox fan, commenting on a Cubs fan board, mocking the Cubs and their personnel, with a shaky grasp of org charts. But he’s NOT a troll.

        • Fishin Phil

          The above post was a fine example of sarcasm. Just wanted to point that out to our guest brygo, as he seems kind of dense.

      • Randy

        after further thought maybe its just better if nobody responds to the idiot.

      • twinkletoez

        you do know that Theo hired Torey Lovullo to be the manager of pawtucket, so he was always a Theo guy. Interviewing and hiring people you are familiar with and have worked with in the past is a common practice everywhere.

        • http://what? brygo

          Idiot? Troll? Wow, this is how you folks deal with someone who brings in a different point of view? Just glad to see u are all mature when it comes to discussion of the teams. You may notice I havent insulted anyone. Why make it personal? Its a baseball discussion.

          • BT

            Dude, you are a troll. Get over it. You come to a Cubs message board, mock the guys in charge, call the team terrible, tell us the team is slimy, you are a troll. I’m fine with leaving out the name calling, but by every definition in the internet dictionary, you are a troll. You aren’t making reasoned posts in order to foster debate, you are making irrational provocative (and fairly ill-informed) ones in order to piss people off. That’s what a troll does.

            • http://what? brygo

              BT, as a Red Sox fan I was just stunned with the “outrage” expressed in the above blog. I think we can all agree (and it was Larry L’s worst moment) that we got taken in the Theo deal. Cubs won that one big time and made us look like idiots. Why the guy who wrote this is baffled that we should roll over again and hand over a guy with was a very important part of our coaching staff to that same team that ripped us off is beyond me

              • hansman

                How many teams have to pay compensation to give a bench coach a promotion?

                • YourResidentJag

                  Apparently….we do.

              • mjhurdle

                you aren’t handing over a guy. You are letting a guy pursue his dream of being a big league manager, which it doesn’t look like will happen with the Red Sox anytime soon.
                Why any team would want to spit in the face of one of their assistants simply over their own bad business decision from years before is beyond me….

                • http://what? brygo

                  again, as far as has been reported, the Cubs havent contacted the red sox about seeking permission yet….so maybe this is all for naught

              • BT

                There shouldn’t have been a “deal” to begin with. Theo didn’t want to work for you guys, and you didn’t want him back. MLB didn’t want a precedent of high impact players being dealt for front office guys moving. Do you see the Padres pissing an moaning 2 years later about Hoyer leaving? They got squat. And they didn’t just win the World Series.

                Do yourself a favor and actually read what Brett is saying. The Red Sox are cutting off their nose to spite their face if they are going to hold Lovullo hostage because of what happened 2 years ago. Baseball talent is going to think twice about working for the Red Sox if they think it’s being run by men behaving like teenage girls mad at their ex-boyfriends. It’s unprofessional and far more embarrassing than being “taken” in a deal for Theo 2 years ago.

          • DarthHater

            Okay, you’re not a troll. Just an idiot.

      • Carew

        don’t be using the term ‘rape’

  • http://what? brygo

    by the way, I think it is an important part to all of this that Cherington said as recently as this morning that the Red Sox have not been approached by any team asking permission to interview any of our coaches.

  • North Side Irish

    PSBJ News ‏@PSBJ 22m
    #Mariners will name Detroit Tigers hitting coach Lloyd McClendon as their new manager, a source close to team says. Announcement soon.

    Cubs last job available?

    • http://what? brygo

      You guys missed out on Aumus. He is the one viewed by most as the true “rising star” in the mangerial area. Had it not been for Farrell being made available, Im certain we would have hired him last year.

      • Stinky Pete

        Yeah, well, Detroit did a horrible thing and hired him while the Cubs were still considering him…

        • Patrick W.

          Genius.

        • Mike F

          Just not the case, the Cubs informed him prior to his taking the Detroit job, he was in the consideration. Right, wrong or indifferent, he was not in the mix. Sadly, one of the names very much in the mix is AJ Hinch, he would and very well maybe a huge disaster in Chicago. Something has been amiss all allying, I like Dave Kaplan, but think he is getting bad information. If Renteria was a done deal he would have been hired. And he simply refuses to believe AJ Hinch is in the conversation as much he is. Someone in that front office is trying to sell Hinch hard.

          • TWC

            That kinda went over your head, Mike.

            • DarthHater

              It happens.

          • Brian Peters

            And if AJ Hinch were in the discussion on the level YOU believe, HE would have already been named manager. Ever heard of Tit for Tat? You just got Tatted.

            • Mike F

              That is true, but the same could be turned to Renteria. For 3 weeks he has been the odds on favorite and year the story line is all about the Red sox refusal. We’ll have to see, I think obviously there is a lot of speculation that Renteria is going to be named. I tend to think he’s the best fit period, but unquestionably there is more to this story. Put yourself in his shoes, he is rumored to be the guy, and yet, the big story is the Cubs want to hold off until they Lovuello.

              Actually, you make my point very well. I have never said or remotely suggested Hinch is a done deal, obviously if he were it wouldn’t take 5 weeks and a day to get here. My point is simply people have written him off because Kaplan who I really like says so. Until they name Renteria, there are people out there suggesting they have continue to be in contact with him and he is somewhere in the mix. I sure as hell hope he isn’t a done deal, but something has drawn this process out and clearly you have to con sider it could be they aren’t in love with any of the candidates.

              I like Renteria a lot, but lets be realistic DD in Detroit has a very good feel for him and that fit was good. And he wasn’t their choice and didn’t turn them down.

        • http://what? brygo

          The Cubs have been lolligagging around while every other team moved swiftly to hire the preferred candidates

          • hansman

            “while every other team moved swiftly to hire *THEIR* preferred candidates”

            FTFY

            • http://what? brygo

              “the” preferred candidate of said team

          • Stinky Pete

            So were the red sox lollygagging when the Cubs hired Sveum?

            • BT

              No Pete, that’s completely different. It’s different because brygo likes the Red Sox. Therefore the Cubs were slimy. If you can’t see the difference, you simply aren’t squinting enough.

            • http://what? brygo

              The difference is that ownership wanted Bobby Valentine and overruled Cherington. They learned afterward that it might be wise to let the gm be the gm. Larry Luchinno has hired two managers: Grady Little and Bobby Valentine. The gms have hired two: Terry Francona and John Farrell. Larry really needs to stay out of that process for the rest of his time with the team:)

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  • Mike F

    Nothing went over my head, just remember someone said Hinch is still very much in the conversation.

  • LER

    Did someone leave the back door unlocked? How did the Cardinals and Red Sox fans manage to dominate discussion about the future of the Cubs? From the Red Sox fan: “most in our organization viewed 2013 as a bridge year.” “Your” organization? If you were part of the organization you wouldn’t be venting in a Cubs blog. You’d be making decisions for the organization, not reflecting about them to people who don’t care. And Cardfan’s lament that the Cubs organization and its followers were misrepresenting reality somehow misses the point that the followers (us) aren’t making the decisions. So don’t share the pro-Cardinal bias with the followers, complain directly to Theo.

    • http://what? brygo

      its common for fans of a team to use terms such as “we won” or “we should trade for this guy” of “my team”. Grow up

  • Die hard

    As a mgr Rentamanageria will have no time to mentor and in fact he needs to delegate same so he doesn’t get too close to any players… This neutralizes any such plus he brings.. He would be better for Cubs as bench coach

    • http://what? brygo

      It appears as though you will be saddled with a stiff. Ya know, Theo (who loves to raid his former organizations) could have had Terry Francona but had no interest. Two world titles and the remarkable job he did in Cleveland this year. Theo instead hired Tito-lite…and he is now reduced to scraps again.

      • DarthHater

        Oh, look who’s back. I knew that once we started talking about hemorrhoids, this fistula couldn’t be far behind.

        • TWC

          Apparently the Boston-area high schools are off this week.

          • DarthHater

            Now you’re starting to sound like Annie. :-P

            • http://what? brygo

              Curious as to why Theo wouldnt want Francona when he was available and coming off a tremendous stretch of success

  • Tony_S

    That escalated quickly.

  • Four and Twenty

    Brett, do you realize you’ve used a variation of the word ‘fruit’ multiple times in the last week?

    You really are rankled.

    • http://what? brygo

      still not one valid report that the Cubs even requested permission to interview Lovullo

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