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hall of fameOne of the most crowded Hall of Fame ballots in recent memory was released today by the Baseball Writers Association of America. The biggest new names include Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, Frank Thomas, Mike Mussina, and Jeff Kent, together with Jacque Jones and others. In the long run, Maddux, Glavine and Thomas are no-brainers. Maddux should be unanimous, even though you know he won’t be.

And those are just the new guys. There are also these holdovers (together with the percentage vote they received last year):

Craig Biggio (68.2)
Jack Morris (67.7)
Jeff Bagwell (59.6)
Mike Piazza (57.8)
Tim Raines (52.2)
Lee Smith (47.8)
Curt Schilling (38.8)
Roger Clemens (37.6)
Barry Bonds (36.2)
Edgar Martinez (35.9)
Alan Trammell (33.6)
Larry Walker (21.6)
Fred McGriff (20.7)
Mark McGwire (16.9)
Don Mattingly (13.2)
Sammy Sosa (12.5)
Rafael Palmeiro (8.8)

It’s a crowded ballot, indeed. A player needs to be identified on 75% of the voters’ ballots to be inducted, and each writer can name only 10 players.

Which 10 would make it on your ballot? I’d go Maddux, Glavine, Thomas, Biggio, Bagwell, Piazza and Raines, for starters. From there, it’s a tough call, and I might cop out by not using all 10 slots.

  • Matt

    My ballot would be exactly the same.

  • YourResidentJag

    Kotteras to Cubs. Good call, Brett.

  • Blackhawks1963

    My ballot…

    Maddux, Glavine, Thomas, Biggio, Morris. I’m not into this hold a guy out on the first ballot crap. These five deserve to be in the Hall, period.

  • MightyBear

    Brett the prophet. Cubs signed Kotteras. I’m sure he’ll have a write up.

    • MichiganGoat

      I actually think that was an easy choice but I’m sure it will result in plenty of bike from many posters.

  • Andrew

    I’d add Schilling to your list at least. I like your inclusion of Jacque Jones among all those great players haha.

    • Andrew

      In the new age of advanced stats, I know this isn’t as important anymore but 19 playoff starts with a 2.23 ERA in the middle of the roids era is hall of fame worthy to me.

      I think I’d also add Mussina too though not as worthy as Schilling

    • Mike

      Not right for him to get in before Randy Johnson.

  • MichiganGoat

    I still think it’s a travesty that Biggio didn’t make it in last year.
    So I’ll go with :
    Biggio, Maddux, Glavine, Thomas, Pizza, Bonds, Sosa, Clemens for sure and them Raines and Lee but those final two are not as high on my list as the other 8.

    • I love marmol

      Mmm pizza

      • MichiganGoat

        Well of course pizza has to be in… duh. Stoopid auto correct.

  • Rudy

    MLB Trade Rumors ‏@mlbtraderumors 56s
    Cubs Acquire George Kottaras http://dlvr.it/4P98XP #mlb

  • Curt

    Sounds like kc traded George kottaras to the cubs don’t know for who yet

    • Kyle

      Apparently for cash.

      He’s a backup catcher with a scrap of upside and probably going to get a bit more than $1m in arbitration.

      He checks off the “backup catcher” box reasonably well.

      • MichiganGoat

        Agreed it was an easy move to make.

        • D-Rock

          I hope he leaves his .180 average in KC…

          • MightyBear

            I hope he brings his 19% walk rate.

            • MichiganGoat

              Yup I could care less what his AVG if he can maintain a .350 OBP and provide quality defense.

              • CubFan Paul

                I want to say his .350 OBP is useless when you’re a below average baserunner but I don’t want to fight the stat monkeys.

                • Kyle

                  You should trust your instincts and definitely *not* say something that stupid.

                  • MichiganGoat

                    ^^^THIS^^^

                  • TOOT

                    His reply was NOT stupid. I agree with it. An OBP is great unless your a catcher that can’t run hitting at the back of a lineup that includes Barney and who knows what else next year. Dude speaks the truth.

                    • MichiganGoat

                      Alright TOOT please explain why having a player get on base is a bad thing unless that player is a good base runner?

                    • ssckelley

                      But if the guy had a nice batting average that was full of singles you would be excited? Other than an occasional RBI what difference is there between a walk and a single?

                  • TOOT

                    But I would like to add, Dioner Navarro was not the right move moving forward. Had a great year, but not worth the money if we really look at what probably, and most likely turn out to be a bad turn the rest of the way.

                • Coop

                  Yep, definitely better to just make an out rather than be slow running the bases.

                  • MichiganGoat

                    Exactly why would we ever want a person that can get on base.

                  • Coop

                    Exactly. Getting on base just slows down the fast guys. We need more Darwin Barneys! He is the new market inefficiency! No one has really recognized the value of guys that keep the bases clear!

                    • CubFan Paul

                      “Getting on base just slows down the fast guys. We need more Darwin Barneys!”

                      That’s definitely not what I was saying, which is why I didn’t expound.

                    • Coop

                      Well, you said getting on base is useless if you are a below average runner, so it isn’t far off…

                    • CubFan Paul

                      Never assume Coop.

                    • hansman

                      “his .350 OBP is useless when you’re a below average baserunner”

                      This is what you said.

                      “Well, you said getting on base is useless if you are a below average runner, so it isn’t far off…”

                      This is what Coop said. Not seeing any differences based on assumptions. Wait, scratch the last three words.

                    • CubFan Paul

                      Welcome to the party Hans (Bruce Willis)

                      You forgot to fisk the beginning of my sentence

                      “I want to say….”

                      That was the beginning of a thought that I clearly didn’t finish. But of course you’re psychic because you would never make an ass of yourself by assuming.

                    • MichiganGoat

                      Well Paul if you “want to say” you should complete the thought or otherwise not say it at all. I am curious why you don’t want a .350 OBP backup catcher because he’s not a good base runner (I haven’t looked at the stats to see if he is or isn’t a good base runner). Are you afraid he’ll just become part of double play or couldn’t score because he’s too slow. Please complete your analysis instead of throwing it out there but refuse to explain your position.

                    • CubFan Paul

                      It’s funnier to see you squirm Goat.

                      Besides, most that are praising the signing now will be here bashing him and his production when he’s hitting .200 midseason.

                    • mjhurdle

                      Just take him at his word Goat.
                      CubfanPaul believes that people getting on base is a bad thing if they are below average runners, but he is frightened at the prospect of having to defend that opinion with things like facts and whatnot.
                      To be honest, i could see how no one would want to actually have to build a defense for that, so his refusal to elaborate is actually quite understandable.

  • On The Farm

    Craig Biggio, Jack Morris, Jeff Bagwell, Mike Piazza, Tim Raines, Lee Smith ,Curt Schilling, Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, and Frank Thomas.

    I feel like the top seven deserve to be in and Maddux, Glavine, and Thomas are first ballot worthy.

  • MichiganGoat

    So I assume many refuse to but Bond, Sosa, and Clemens because of roids? I include them because 1-they were never formally caught (as compared to Palmario) and 2-they each have met major milestones 300 W, 600 HR.

    • hansman

      Ya, I’d throw Clemens on my ballot. Not sure why I didn’t think to add him.

      • MichiganGoat

        What about Sosa?

        • fresno cub fan

          Nope

          • MichiganGoat

            Sosa never tested positive under the MLB policy and never had the opportunity to go through an appeal, he is part of the exclusive 600 HR club, so he should be in. If he can’t get in because of that then Thome and Griffey should also be barred because they played in the same era.

            • Blublud

              Thome, I don’t know about. Griffey has never been connected to PEDs, so he is a clear first ballot. Only way Sosa should get in is if he goes to visit. I could careless if no one from this era gets in. Even if it cost Maddux. I would hate it for him, but that the result of the era.

              • MichiganGoat

                That’s fine if you want to ban the whole era, although I don’t agree, but to pick and choose is just bad for the sport.

    • Blublud

      I’d rather put kevin Orie in the hall then any of those guys.

      • AB

        Nobody cares or would go to your Hall of Lame.

        • Blublud

          Thanks for caring enough to reply.

  • hansman

    Maddux
    Glavine
    Biggio
    Bagwell
    Piazza
    Raines
    Bonds

    • MoneyBoy

      Hansman… No Frank Thomas?? Geezuz… there was a stretch there when he was one of the most feared, if not *the* most feared, hitters in the game!!

      • hansman

        It would have been helpful to have the actual list in front of me when I typed, but ya, I’d vote him in.

    • Blublud

      Who in the hell would put Bonds on any ballot. You are joking right.

      • MichiganGoat

        Because he’s never been officially caught and he is the all time HR leader to start with.

        • Blublud

          No he’s not. He cheated for at least half of thosen so they should not count. If Bud wants to go out with a bang, he would wipe any player who cheated by steroids records out the books. Not just the ones that they speculate came from cheating, but the whole career.

          • MichiganGoat

            When did he ever test positive or was found guilty? He won his court case and never tested positive, your basing this on speculation. However I do agree he was likely on something but if I had a vote I’d want proof before I convict him.

            • Blublud

              If he was on trial, I would want proof. Cant convict him without proof.

              Since the hall is not a right, like having to be proven guilty before doing time is, I don’t need concrete proof. He admitted to using. I don’t care if he was telling truth when he said he didn’t know what it was (though we all know he knew what it was), you are responsible for what goes into your body.

            • Matt

              When did Lance Armstrong ever test positive?

      • hansman

        At this point, yes. He hasn’t been banned from the sport and what him, Sosa and McGuire did for the sport did FAR more for the sport than Rose ever did.

        The Hall of Fame is FULL of guys who used PEDs (successfully and unsuccessfully) or who were suspected of using PEDs.

        Gambling is far more dangerous to the sport than juicers.

  • bbmoney

    The ballot is just crazy packed. I know people don’t like to vote PEDs users (or suspected PED users) in…..but a baseball HOF is just a joke without guys like Bonds or Clemens in it.

    It’s a museum, put an asterisk by their plaque, I don’t care, but to just ignore their presence in the history of the game is akin to an ostrich burying it’s head in the sand. Made all the worse by the fact that baseball was slow to actually…you know…do anything to try to stop them.

    Also…go ahead and put Pete Rose in the hall while you’re at it. Of course with appropriate astrisk / documentation about him also being a scumbag who bet on the game as well.

    • MichiganGoat

      Completely agree

      • MightyBear

        Disagree on Rose. He was banned from baseball. I agree with Bonds, Sosa, Palmeiro and Clemens. They didn’t ban them for steroid use and it’s not in the bylaws, yet. If you’re going to put Rose in, then put Shoeless Joe Jackson and Eddie Cicotte in.

        • MichiganGoat

          Palmario was caught under the the MLB drug testing policy so him being excluded is fine by me, but making decisions based on speculation bothers me. And I still don’t understand how Biggo was not selected.

          • MightyBear

            Biggio wasn’t selected because he didn’t play in New York or LA where the media is. If he played for the Yankees or the Dodgers, he would have been in last year.

            • cubfanincardinalland

              Or the Cardinals.

        • bbmoney

          I’d be fine with that. And I’d have no problem throwing information all over their plaques or whatever saying that they bet on the game, fixed a WS, etc.

          It’s part of the game’s history, I don’t want it ignored or shut out. I want it upfront so when people go look at it…yeah Shoeless Joe…great player….but he did a terrible thing. Learn from it.

          • MightyBear

            Well at least you’re consistent.

    • mjhurdle

      I would argue that the Hall of Fame is more than a museum.
      There is a museum part of it, and if you want to include information about Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, etc in it, then I am 100% behind it.
      If you want to include them into a Famed list of baseball players to be honored for their on the field accomplishments, then you lose my support, because i dont believe you can trust any of their on field accomplishments.

      • jj

        The HOF is two parts – a museum and a hall of the greatest players (its been awhile, but its an actual separate room). Bonds, Clemens, Palmiero can appear throughout the museum, but we should have higher standards for the Hall itself, and, to me, PED use is grounds for exclusion.

        • bbmoney

          What is a hall of greatest players if not a museum exhibit

  • Blackhawks1963

    No PED suspect gets in on my ballot. Hence no Sosa, Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, Bagwell, McGwire.

    Schilling, Trammell, Smith, Mussina are not Hall worthy enough for me.

    Hence my yes ballot of Maddux, Glavine, Thomas, Biggio, Morris.

    • Coop

      I’m torn on the PED issue, but in the end I agree with Blackhawk.

      No Sosa, Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, Bagwell, McQwire for me.

      Agree on Schilling, Trammell, Smith, Mussina not being HoFers. I’d throw Jack Morris in here, too. They were all really good, but not HoF to me. I feel like we have lowered the bar for HoF of late. I want to think of the HoF as true all-time greats. When I think of HoF I think Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio. These are the legends of the game. It is not the Hall of Really Good. They need to transcend their generation.

      So my ballot is Maddux, Glavine, Thomas, Biggio. And Maddux is the only no-doubter to me. But I’m a tough sell on this issue…

      • Lukas

        Why in Gods name is Bagwell on the list of PED users?

        • Blublud

          Because it doesn’t take a failed test to know that Jeff Badwell was a clear user.

          • Blublud

            I think Biggio also used at the end of his career.

            • AB

              LOL you are such a Tool

              • http://www.bleachernation.com Brett

                This is not an acceptable comment. Clean it up.

              • Blublud

                And you are so cool. I’m not the only person who suspects biggio.

                • MichiganGoat

                  And I think that suspicion is what kept him out and that is flat out wrong.

                • bbmoney

                  Keeping someone out because of Vague rumors is pretty lame.

                  I can at least respect, while is agreeing about keeping caught Ped users out. Can’t respect this opinion at all.

                  • bbmoney

                    *disagreeing

                  • Blublud

                    Once again, there is no such thing as keeping a player out. The hall is a privilege, not a right. There is no rule that states just because a guy has 3000 hits, 300 wins, 600 HR or any other stat that they have to be allowed in. A player can have all three, and the still don’t have to be allowed In.

                    Actually if a guy had 600HR, 3000 Hits and 300 win, he should be in, steroids or not. That’s a heck of a feat. :-D

                    • MichiganGoat

                      Well except that ever single player that hit those feats are in the Hall. There are some golden benchmarks that are being tainted because of speculation.

            • hansman

              It’s also rumored that Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays did it.

              LET’S KICK THEM OUT!!!!!!

              • MichiganGoat

                Well Willie Mays has admitted to using greenies regularly, as did everyone else, so I guess that era should be removed.

                • DarthHater

                  Horny Goat Weed users should not be allowed to comment on this topic.

    • Voice of Reason

      How do you know ravines and Thomas weren’t juicing.

      I believe they were.

      • Coop

        I essentially said the same thing in another post. I agree with you – there is an unfortunate taint on all from the steroid era. My belief is that Frank Thomas did not juice, but I can’t blame anyone that believes he did – there is a pervasive guilt-by-association simply by having played in that era.

        • MichiganGoat

          And for this reason I don’t think anybody that has not tested positive under the MLB drug testing policy (and have the opportunity to go through an appeal) should be kept out of the HOF because of speculation.

          • Blublud

            I disagree. If you even remotely connected, even if only by speculation, I don’t want them in. This is not a court of law, they should have to prove their innocence.

            • MichiganGoat

              I understand it’s not a court of law but by your definition any power hitter from that era must be equally under suspicion and should not be allowed in and that just makes no sense. The HOF is full of cheaters, drug users, and bad humans but they had amazing numbers so they are in.

            • http://www.bleachernation.com Luke

              I’m curious – what proof of innocence would you accept? I’m thinking in terms of the cases that pure speculation here, and not even speculation that is widely believed (Bagwell, Biggio, maybe Thomas for some).

              If the standard is, you say, no one gets in who is connected to PEDs even by speculation unless they prove they are innocent, then what consittutes a proof of innocence?

              • Blublud

                I’m not sure. It would take a lot in my opinion. If I was voting, I would give Maddux, Glavine and Griffey a pass. Maybe Frank Thomas, but I doubt it. He has quietly been connected to PED use also. I guess I would let Raines in. Even Curt Schilling, the anti steroid guy, has been connected to them so I don’t know if I would let him in. He may barely be a Hall guy anyway.

                In court, I need a reason to convict you. With the Hall, I need reason to let you in.

                • http://www.bleachernation.com Luke

                  So if a beat writer with an axe to grind wrote a column full of unnamed sources and innuendo connecting Maddux to PEDs, you’d eliminate Maddux immediately because he would have then been linked to drugs?

                  That would fall under “even remotely connected, even if only by speculation”.

                  • Blublud

                    That’s one column. No, it would take more then that. I guess by remotely, I meant if the consensus thinks you used, even though there is no positive test, then I may, and probably should hold that against you. But one acticle from one beat writer is probably not going to influence my decision.

                • ssckelley

                  The only fair way to do this is to assume everyone from that era did PEDS, basing decisions on rumors, speculations, and assumptions is not fair. If you assume they all did it then you simply vote on who was the best players from that ERA.

              • Matt

                I agree with this. there is no way to know for sure, but Thomas, Biggio, and Piazza never had numbers that were absolutely mindblowing like Bonds, Clemens, Luis Gonzalez, Sosa, or McGwire ever had. Sure, this may set a different standard since I’m essentially punishing those guys for having such inflated numbers in an era when they were far from the only guys that were juicing, but at the same time, those guys are the obvious cases. They are the ones that we can say for sure were juicing, rather they have been caught or not. Anyone who doesn’t think those guys were juicing can also buy a bridge from me.

                At the same time, those other guys may have been, but I’m not convinced at all that they were. I don’t think it’s a sure thing that they were not, but at the same time, I don’t have that damning evidence that they were. There isn’t anything beyond anything else ever done in the game before that they were doing. I mean, Piazza and Bagwell were breaking down at the right edge, which defies the benefits of steroids and how they help you to recover quicker, while Bonds was putting up his best numbers in his late 30′s. Biggio’s skillset actually went on a normal arc, and so on. The same goes with Maddux and Glavine for what they were, but at the same time, I don’t think anyone accuses those two of juicing.

                Clemens is another guy who seemed to get better as he got into his later 30′s. While a rare case of this may have happened, we know that Bonds did juice, but “didn’t know”. Clemens was a similar situation. In other words, they juiced. McGwire has admitted that much, and Luis Gonzalez went from a 20 HR type of guy to a 40-50 HR guy out of nowhere, almost like he was suddenly playing for the Cardinals (hmmmm). Sosa went from a speed guy with surprising pop to a pure power guy with amazing pop, when nobody hits 60 home runs in a season for almost 40 years and then one guy gets to 60 home runs 3 times in the last 4 years before that 40 year mark, we know they were juicing.

                The bottom line is that we need to quit being robots and just need to use some common sense to find out who the obvious juicers were. From there, it’s up to each individual person to figure out if they feel like the person was juicing. However, career arc is something that needs to be paid attention to. There have been eras when great offensive players just came around. However, there is a level of reason to it. Bonds was a great 5 tool type of guy, but he gave up on that speed to increase his power. McGwire wouldn’t have even been able to play more than 110 games per season if it wasn’t for the juice. He had so many back problems before he was 30 years old that we know he was at best a 400 home run for his career guy without a little extra help.

                There’s just too many things you see when you actually look into things.

                • Matt

                  By “this”, I meant to what Luke said.

          • ssckelley

            I think it should be one way or the other, either allow all of the best players of that era (PED or not) be in the HoF or none of them. Otherwise all this is going to turn into is a witch hunt and there is no evidence and no way of proving someone did or did not use PED’s back then. Keeping someone out of the HoF simply because we suspect they used PEDs is wrong.

            • MichiganGoat

              Exactly we have very little proof on any if them only Palmario was caught under the policy.

            • Blublud

              You are looking at it wrong. There is no such thing as being kept out the hall. You have to earn your way in and give the voters a reason to put you in the hall. Needing steroids to do your job is not giving a voter reason to vote you in. The only player that I know is being kept out of the hall is Pete Rose.

              • http://www.bleachernation.com Luke

                Hard to argue he is being kept out when he agreed, of his own free will, to that lifetime ban.

                He chose to be kept out. He has since changed his mind, but the fact remains he is out by choice. He could have turned down that deal.

                • MichiganGoat

                  Precisely and players that have been caught Palmario, ARod (unless he wins his appeal then I’d have to rethink), Braun, and others will never have my support. I’m fine with not voting on “convicted” users but I don’t like when speculation drives decisions.

                  • http://www.bleachernation.com Luke

                    Didn’t ARod admit to using in Texas? I’m not sure how his appeal would matter for you if he’s already owned up to it once.

                    • MichiganGoat

                      Correct, I forgot about that and that would influence my decision to most likely saying no.

              • MichiganGoat

                They earn there way in by doing things like 3000 hits, 300 Wins, 600 HR if we using speculation to make decisions then I’m furious by the hubris BBWA believe they have on legacies.

                • http://www.bleachernation.com Luke

                  Not all of the BBWA.

                  • MichiganGoat

                    True there are some very quality writers that vote ethically and objectively. I do wish an ethics like board would evaluate these poor writers that make a mockery of the Hall. Ever year some player that has no business in the Hall gets a write in vote and that stupid.

                    • Blublud

                      Hell, players that have no business in the hall have their name on the ballot.

                      Bonds, Sosa, McGuire, Clemons.

                      I think the writers are doing a good job. The majority also thinks so as these guys will never sniff the hall.

                    • MichiganGoat

                      Well Blu I’ll give you this you are consistent with your belief regardless if how wrong and dangerous banning players out of suspicion can be to something like the HOF. “Sorry kids the players I grew up in are absent from the HOF because too many people thought they were guilty.

                      Curious how do you feel about Jeter? He was playing during the height of the PED era, should be also be kept out because of that suspicion? If Biggio was using would it follow that Jeter was as well?

              • ssckelley

                I disagree, the player still has to have the results to get in. That should be the proof they belong not suspicion or accusations that cannot be proved. Baseball has an era of PED use, there is no denying it, but the records and results still exist. The HoF is about awarding the best baseball players of all time, including the PED era. So unless there is admittance or proof then there is no reason to keep the best ball players out of the HoF.

                • Blublud

                  Yes there is reason. Would these players be the best without steroids? That is a question these voters have to ask themselves before they vote.

                  “Am I voting for an all-time great, or a guy who appeared to be because he used steroids.”

                  Ever voter should ask themselves that question. Then the next question should be

                  “Even if this guy would have been great without steroids, does it mean he lacks the morals be admitted, and how does his use impact future ball players who could have been influenced by his use.”

                  Having morals is one requirement to be admitted. If you don’t want it to be a requirement, every human being has the right to start their own baseball hall of fame.

                  • ssckelley

                    You are completely missing the point.

                  • MichiganGoat

                    Oh my if we are getting into moral arguements then a large group of the hall should be removed. Ty Cobb was a hideous racist, Mantle and Ruth womanizers, and on and on.

                    • mjhurdle

                      while i don’t agree with the level BluBlud is taking this, i also don’t think that past players accepted into the HoF has any bearing on weighing whether the current players meet a certain “moral” standard.
                      Not saying that everyone does have to accept the “morality” clause in the HoF requirements, but i don’t think past mistakes justify making future mistakes as well.

                    • Blublud

                      Morals of the games. Respect for the game. Ty Cobb being a recist had nothing to do with his competitive respect for the game. Ruth sleeping with women didn’t mean he cheated or played the game without morals. I would let a murderer or a rapist in the hall before I let a steroid user. I would despise the murderer and the rapist more, but the acts they committed have nothing to do with the integrity of baseball.

                    • http://www.bleachernation.com Luke

                      So long as Cobb remains in the hall, any morality based argument is as hollow as Bond’s home run totals.

                      Even for his day, jumping into the stand to beat up a fan was considered pretty lousy behaviour.

              • OregonCubsFan

                Fascinating discussion and I can see the points on both sides. To my knowledge, it has never happened, but what if players were removed from the hall after being voted in? So – for example – say a player such as Griffey were voted in and it were later discovered that he had utilized PEDs, then he could be removed. This, of course, would require the either baseball to begin banning players on account of PEDs (unlikely) or the Hall to make a ruler that PED users are to be excluded from the hall (also unlikely). I would hope that if it were discovered that a current HOF were guilty of gambling on baseball during his career that he would be removed from the hall – even posthumously if that is the case. The hall represents ability and accomplishments, but it also represents respect for the integrity of the game.

  • miggy80

    Maddux
    Glavine
    Thomas
    Morris
    Biggio
    Raines
    Bagwell
    Piazza

    • MoneyBoy

      It’s not a Cub-centric thing… but why in the world doesn’t Lee Arthur Smith get any love for the HOF?? He was a dominating closer whose numbers have stood the test of time for quite some time now!!

      • ClevelandCubsFan

        Because relievers don’t belong in the Hall of Fame. Except Mariano Rivera. And Eck. I’d put them in. I’m not sure I’d put anyone else in. Sutters and Fingers are in. Lee Smith was better. But two (three?) wrongs don’t make a right.

        Let’s say we accept Wilherm and Gossage. Kinda borderline to me. Then, can we just agree that less than 30 JAWS for a relief pitcher is a non-starter for the HoF?

  • Spriggs

    I would vote for Maddux, Thomas, and Raines. Then just because I’m a blatant homer and to spite little Bobby “blackie” Costas, I would also vote for Sammy.

  • You got bats, we got Wood. Travis Wood.

    Maddux-Glavine-F Thomas- Mussina-Biggio-Bagwell-Piazza-Clemens-Bonds-McGriff. Gotta love the crime dog. Clemens & Bonds were historical figures of the game. Like the sport of cycling, PED use was a major part of the game, so I don’t believe in punishing these players. Does baseball even exist without the McGwire/Sosa home run race? Does ANYONE in the US care about cycling if Lance Armstrong doesn’t win 7 tours in a row? Nope. Give them what they deserve. Not a big fan of Raffy Palmeiro or some of the other PED users on that list. I wish the Cubs would welcome back Slammin Sammy to the Cubs. He was the star of the team as I grew up in the 90′s, not Mark Grace the drunk.

    • Walter

      In what cosmos of the universe is Fred McGriff a Hall of Famer?!? And I agree with some others who say NO to the steroid cheats, meanings Piazza, Bagwell, Sosa, Bonds, McGwire, Palmiero and Clemens. I’m not sure on Biggio’s “cleanliness” but I’ll cut him a break unless there is more to the story.

      • terencemann

        Bagwell’s connections to PEDs are the worst injustice in the history of HoF voters. I hate the BBWA so much. It’s all based around “just look at him” rhetoric or “he knew a guy who knew a guy…”

        • Blackhawks1963

          That’s the shame of the steroid era. I have no sympathy for the cheaters or the suspects. And to me Bagwell and Piazza are huge suspects. Who made multi millions in a game that otherwise would have spit them out long before their careers ultimately ended.

          • terencemann

            There isn’t a shred of hard evidence against Bagwell and he had a fairly normal career arc for an elite hitter. If the PED suspicions reach all the way to Bagwell, then not a single player from that era should get in.

            • Coop

              “If the PED suspicions reach all the way to Bagwell, then not a single player from that era should get in.”

              Unfortunately, I think we aren’t far removed from that…

              • MichiganGoat

                I agree and it disgusts me, I do believe more than we even suspect we’re using some form if PED and in that case either ban the whole era, which would be a travesty, or pick the best players of that generation in the assumption that they were all using substances.

        • Coop

          It is definitely a slippery slope judging PED guilt. Unfortunately, if you played in that era and hit for power, there will automatically be doubts. Personally, I don’t know how to reconcile this. I wish I could have faith in players that I grew up rooting for, but sadly, I don’t. I have grown cynical and suspicious of all big hitters of that era. I think Frank Thomas is one of the few exceptions – and this is really based on him being so loudly outspoken against PED use. Really, who knows if he just just full of it, too? I really hate that this is my sentiment…

          But to directly address the Bagwell issue – unfortunately I am cynical about him, too. I guess I use a bit of an unfair process, but I judge largely on physical appearance and known association with confirmed (or largely substantiated) PED users. It seems almost infectious – in my mind it started with the Oakland bash brothers and spread from there. There were hot spots – Oakland, Texas, Dodgers. Bagwell was associated with Ken Caminiti – unfortunately, this is where I start drawing my doubts about Bags. I acknowledge that it might not be fair. It might not reflect the truth. But unfortunately, that is the taint that comes with the steroid era. We may likely never know who *really* used PEDs – if we don’t, then the suspicion will always linger…

          • Coop

            And I will add that unfortunately, this is not like our legal system. When it comes to PEDs, you are *not* innocent until proven guilt. Sadly, it is the other way around…

  • terencemann

    The idea that the second greatest hitter of all-time won’t make it on his second ballot but Jack freaking Morris might get in is just silly.

  • cubfanincardinalland

    No love for Jeff Kent? Hit more home runs than any second baseman in baseball history. 21st in baseball all time in doubles.
    Drove in 90 plus runs 9 years in a row, no 2nd baseman ever did that. MVP winner. 56 WAR career player. Tried to kick Barry Bond’s ass, that should stand for something.

    • terencemann

      He played in an insane era for offense. His career OPS+ isn’t in the top 20 and he lacks the peak career years that push a guy like Sosa into consideration.

      He probably loses points with the press for being an even bigger jerk than Bonds, too.

      • terencemann

        Top 20 for 2nd basemen, that is.

    • Spriggs

      Nope.

  • Sarah

    Will Maddux go in with the Braves or Cubs? Not that it matters a bit, he deserves to go in on the first ballot, I am just curious what you think.

    • Spriggs

      He’ll go in with the Braves no doubt. The HOF will see to that like they did with Dawson.

      • MichiganGoat

        Doesn’t it depend on games played (not sure who he more with) or is it just an random decision?

        • TWC

          It’s the Hall’s decision.

    • terencemann

      The Atlanta Braves only have one representative currently in the Hall (with a few more on the way in the next 5 years) so I wouldn’t be surprised if they put him with Atlanta. On the other hand, the Padres also only have one representative but that would be a horrible joke to play on him.

      • Pat

        It will be Atlanta. That”s where he put up hall of fame numbers.

    • Senor Cub

      Maddux will go in as a Brave as he should! He was the best pitcher I’ve ever seen and glad he was with the Cubs for part of his career. After he finished his career, I think Cubs nation was enamored with him much more then he ever cared to be with Cubs nation. Still, that does not take from what a great pitcher he was!

  • http://deepcenterfield.blogspot.com Jason Powers

    G. Maddux
    T. Glavine
    R. Clemens
    C. Shilling

    B. Bonds
    L. Walker
    M. Piazza
    C. Biggio
    E. Martinez

  • Voice of Reason

    I really don’t care.

    Let Sosa and palmeiro and everybody who put up hall of fame numbers into the hall. If it makes you happy, they could put an asterisk by the names.of those who tested positive.

    There’s been cheating and gambling going on since baseball started.

    All they can do is try to control it.

    Nobody cares about the hall of fame anymore.

  • Dougy D

    No DH! Just take off all of the games that Thomas didn’t play defense on, and then add those numbers up. I would guess that they aren’t near as impressive.

    • Pat

      Granted the counting stats aren’t great, since he spent half his time at DH, but here’s the career avg/obp/slg line as a first baseman, 337/453/625.

      As I said, counting not as good hits/runs/rbi/hr, 1174/735/816/250 (969 games)

    • Blackhawks1963

      Frank Thomas was one of the greatest right handed hitting run producers of all time. He had a ten year stretch that compares with Jimmy Foxx for crying out loud. I’m no Sox fan but Thomas was an absolute beast and should be a first ballot Hall of Famer. And he was clean in an era of cheats. A 260 pound football player playing baseball.

      • http://deepcenterfield.blogspot.com Jason Powers

        Would you say he’s hugely different from Jeff Bagwell, who didn’t benefit from a DH role?

        Or Rafael Palmeiro – leave aside the steroids for the discussion – who played some LF and 1B primarily even in the AL?

        Even the Crime dog, Fred McGriff, Mark McGwire, or Don Mattingly had stretches were they dominated or were in the conversation…

        Notice: all 1B. It’s no knock on the position if you put up the HOF numbers, but we could populate this class with nothing but 1B…Frank might lead, but the difference is not as great to me, at least, as other guys.

        I even chose Edgar Martinez, primarily a DH, because he had 500+ games as a 3B which, to me is worth maybe 800 1B games. And I like his stats and dominance too (10 years of ALL STAR stats). OBP: 418.
        http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/martied01.shtml

        Some of the debate could surround team construction. AL teams are able to push guys to DH or carry 2-DH/1B types readily, whereas, the NL forces you to have more ability that just a a bat.

        Just a conversation, not a critique.

    • Andrew

      It’s not his fault there is a DH. He would have been a firstbaseman for all the games that he DH’d in anyways.

  • jj

    Maddux, Glavine, Thomas, Biggio, Raines, Trammel. I’d need to look again at Bagwell.

  • Blublud

    I can believe people think Biggio is Hall worthy, but laughed when I said Choo had a near HOF slashline.

    • MichiganGoat

      Because Biggio has 3000 hits Choo doesn’t.

      • Blublud

        That why I said his “slash line was near HOF worthy.”

        Choo became a almost regular at 25. If you compare his numbers to biggio from 25-30, they are pretty much the same player, with SB being the only major difference.

        • Turn Two

          Biggio played catcher, infield and outfield all at acceptable level.

          • MichiganGoat

            The key to Biggo is those 3000 hits that’s a very small group of players and should be automatic HOF vote like 300 W

            • Blublud

              The question is, how many of those hits came from him extending his career with steroids.

              • http://www.bleachernation.com Luke

                Given that he had an OPS+ under 100 in 4 of his last 6 seasons and did not post an OPS+ over 110 after 2001 (his age 35 season), I’d say not very many.

                He wasn’t exactly lighting up the scoreboard in the last quarter of his career.

                • Blublud

                  Biggio OPS+ was bad because everyone was putting up high numbers at that point. Steroids or not, he was never going to hit like the Bonds, Sosas and McGuires. Biggio played til age 42. He had 2155 hits after his age 35 season. From 36-42, or 6 season, he had 905 hits. That’s 150 hits per season. If steroids is what allowed him to extend his career, then I would argue they also played a LARGE part in him getting to 3000 hits.

                  • http://www.bleachernation.com Luke

                    That’s 150 hits per season from a guy who averaged 174 hits per season for his career.

                    • Blublud

                      My point is, Biggio’s only legit claim to the hall is 3000 hits. Without roids, he doesn’t make til age 42. If he doesn’t make it to age 42, he doesn’t have 3000 hits. He hit 3000 in his last season. Therefore, he is not a hall of famer anyway. The fact the he used roids just adds on to why he shouldn’t be in.

                    • http://www.bleachernation.com Luke

                      I’m not seeing evidence of Biggio using steriods. I’ve found a couple articles speculating based on little more than his friendship with Bagwell, but that’s it. I’m not seeing any clear consensus that he cheated.

                      And I don’t see it in the numbers, either. If he were using, I think his numbers would have spiked when he left the Astrodome. They didn’t. Throughout his career they look like the numbers of a good line drive hitter who wracked up a ton of hits, including plenty of doubles, and had enough power to pull mistakes out of the yard.

                      That’s not to say he was clean, but I’m not seeing any reason to think otherwise.

                    • MichiganGoat

                      Compare him to Jeter and you see very similar players – the link I post below show you two almost identical players. So if Biggo is dirty so is Jeter.

          • Blublud

            I’m not saying Choo is a hall guy. Or as good on defense. All I said was a near hall worthy slash line. So all I was comparing was the offensive numbers.

    • http://www.bleachernation.com Luke

      Not near HOF, but there. Choo’s slash line is in line with a HOF player. There are HOF guys with worse slash lines.

      That does not mean, though, that Choo is a HOF worthy player. That is an entirely different conversation and one in which I don’t think Choo fairs particularly well.

      So while his slash line is comparable to HOF players (and could therefore be considered an HOF line), Choo’s career is not, I think, in that category.

      • Blublud

        This is actually exactly what I said, and people thought it was just hilarious. I never called Choo an actual Hall of Famer.

  • Steve

    George Kottaras in and Dioneer Navarro out as the Cubs backup catcher. Another indication that 2014 is going to be another 90-loss season.

    • OregonCubsFan

      Don’t mean to be snarky – but I’m not sure a team’s success or failure rests on their back up catcher.

      • MichiganGoat

        Exactly but it won’t stop the irrational complaints.

    • Jeff

      Do you think Theo will list Tanking to get #1 draft pick on his résumé as a Job skill for when he leaves the Cubs and tries his experimentation on another gullible owner at a different team??

      Man, we are going to be in a dog fight with Houston all summer long. I wonder who will have the better players to trade at the deadline so the teams record can suck even worse???

  • caryatid62

    Baseball’s obsession with moral sanctity, coupled with paranoid nostalgia is a bigger threat to the game than steroids ever have been.

    Put ‘em all in the Hall.

  • Murky Waters

    Maybe they should just embrace the steroid era. Allow them all in. Create a separate wing to hall of fame and use it as a canvas to inform people of that era in baseball. We can’t just pretend the last 20 + years didn’t exist .

  • MichiganGoat

    Here’s a nice little Fangraph comparison of Biggio & Jeter (Bonds is in there as well and I can’t seem to get him off the chart but it’s a nice counter point). What you see is how similar Biggio & Jeter are to each other but one of them is a can’t miss 1st ballot HOF but Biggio was not. They both played in the steroid era so why is one being punished and the other is not (yeah I know Yankees blah blah blah), if Jeter is in then so should Biggio.

    http://tinyurl.com/phpy99u

    • hansman

      It’s because you were on Bonds’ page.

      • MichiganGoat

        Ah thanks I just followed a link but I think Bond was a nice comparison to what a “juicer” stats should look like.

  • Noah_I

    For the PED guys, my requirement is would they have been Hall of Famers without PEDs. There are very few cases where my answer to that question is no, so most of them would be voted in for me if the numbers merited it. However, considering the crowded field and the fact that there are a few guys who I think have been forced to wait too long to get in the Hall, if I had a vote I would vote for: Maddux, Glavine, Thomas, Bagwell, Biggio, Piazza, Raines, Clemens, Bonds, Trammell. If I had an eleventh vote, it would be for Edgar Martinez. Sosa would be 13th for me, behind Schilling. This is due to Sosa’s short peak, not other issues.

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