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Who Saw Hawk on MLBTV Yesterday


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15 replies to this topic

#1 sven-erik312

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 12:33 PM

If you didn't see it, it's here:

http://hardballtalk....on-mlb-network/#

 

What we have here is a failure to communicate. I think that Harrelson does'nt understand the role of sabermetrics and perhaps the users of sabermetrics don't fully understand it's roll in the big picture either. I don't pretend to understand it all myself. But I wonder if, as with every other big new thing, people take it as the be all, end all solutíon until they realize that it is just a tool like anything else in the game.

 



#2 Cubbie Blues

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 12:41 PM

Sorry, I'm not going to click on a link dedicated to that POS. Harrelson is the tool in this equation.

 

Baseball all comes down to percentages. Always have and always will. Sabermetrics is just a way to quantify those numbers.


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#3 SirCub

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:04 PM

What I think is silly is that listening to his (and many anti-saber lobbyists) arguments, its very clear that he hasn't taken any time to actually look into what the sabermetrics have to offer.

 

He talked about all the things Harold Reynolds did to be a great player: playing defense, stealing bases, turning double plays, etc. without realizing that sabermetrics actually quantifies all of that. It's the traditionalists who undervalue those things way more than sabermetrics analysts.

 

But yea, Hawk's a bumbling idiot. No surprise there.



#4 Brett

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:15 PM

Jinx, by the way.



#5 Stinky Pete

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:40 PM

Sorry, I'm not going to click on a link dedicated to that POS. Harrelson is the tool in this equation.

 

Baseball all comes down to percentages. Always have and always will. Sabermetrics is just a way to quantify those numbers.

 

But don't you see the parallel in your refusal to watch to Hawk's refusal to even listen to an argument for sabermetrics?  You've GOT to watch the video or you are becoming that POS Harrelson.



#6 Cubbie Blues

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:48 PM

Sorry, I'm not going to click on a link dedicated to that POS. Harrelson is the tool in this equation.
 
Baseball all comes down to percentages. Always have and always will. Sabermetrics is just a way to quantify those numbers.

 
But don't you see the parallel in your refusal to watch to Hawk's refusal to even listen to an argument for sabermetrics?  You've GOT to watch the video or you are becoming that POS Harrelson.
I kinda see the parallel. Where it breaks down is most of the people on the sabermetric side of things grew up the other way and had to be convinced/shown the mathematics/sabermetrics side. We have heard the arguments on the other side because that is what we used to think as well. Therefor pieces of shit are out of my diet for today and will not be digested.

"It's not the dress that makes you look fat, it's the fat that makes you look fat." - Al Bundy

 

"Ow" - Dylan Bundy


#7 sven-erik312

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:59 PM

I agree with all of you, I won't go so far as to say that Harrelson is an idiot. A baffoon yes but not an idiot. I agree with Cubbie Blue, baseball IS about the precentages and that is the tool that Sabermetric tries to illuminate. I don't think that Hawk understands that. I think he believes that sabermetrics will become the end and doesn't understand that it is a means to an end. I can see the other side as well where you have a FO that has no boots on the ground because they over estimate what sabermetrics is. Think "paperless ofice" concept for example and how that turned out.

Some of you know that I am a musician. Going back the 1980's in Chicago, when I firs came to town.  Chicago was a real center for studio work for advertising. Almost as soon as I moved to town, I began to get some studio work too. Then came the synth revolution and the studio work began to just dry up. Suddenly, all the recording was done by electrics, it just took over. Now, there is more of a combination of humans and electrics. The studio work is nothing like it was, but there is the realiziation that electrics weren't everything.

Sabermetrics is a tool, it's just a tool for adding more detail to what baseball has done for as long as baseball has existed. Is it possible that both sides of the issue have not understood that fully yet?



#8 SirCub

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 03:03 PM

 

 

Sorry, I'm not going to click on a link dedicated to that POS. Harrelson is the tool in this equation.
 
Baseball all comes down to percentages. Always have and always will. Sabermetrics is just a way to quantify those numbers.

 
But don't you see the parallel in your refusal to watch to Hawk's refusal to even listen to an argument for sabermetrics?  You've GOT to watch the video or you are becoming that POS Harrelson.
I kinda see the parallel. Where it breaks down is most of the people on the sabermetric side of things grew up the other way and had to be convinced/shown the mathematics/sabermetrics side. We have heard the arguments on the other side because that is what we used to think as well. Therefor pieces of shit are out of my diet for today and will not be digested.

 

Yup. Pretty much nobody comes into baseball with a sabermetric slant. We're all indoctrinated with the talk of hustle, grit, and determination. There are no real baseball fans that don't know that side of the argument. I think the disconnect is that traditional fans/broadcasters/pieces-of-shit don't consider the people on the other side to be fans. Which is really silly. Why would we care at all if we weren't fans?



#9 fromthemitten

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 05:53 PM

Gonna watch this after the game I hope there's a discussion of the importance of belly fire



#10 fromthemitten

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 08:26 PM

"TWTW" I LOVE IT



#11 FFP

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 09:13 AM

I can appreciate a former player turned color man protecting his own ignorance so thoroughly (but one turned field manager, or coach, or scout must open his mind). It is the player in them. Their ignorance probably helped them as players.

Players see the ball, hit the ball. They have to trust their bodies, and often do so by turning off their minds. (What is a thoughtful reaction to a 6'6" man throwing a hard missle at or near your person at near 100 miles and hour?) Or else, like a pitcher who can't throw to first or a catcher with the yips, things can get ugly.

I wonder if kids coming up now buy into sabermetrics? I know they are aware. Young pitchers have always asked their Physics teachers to explain the effect of their own velocity on the velocity of the ball leaving the bat, for example.

But if a developing player changes his approach based on sabermetrics to change his development trajectory, he might. Perhaps in some unexpected (negative) way. I mean, Babe Ruth ate hot dogs, drank beer, threw the ball and hit the ball. If he had seen research on plate discipline, or studied hundreds of hours of video on his stance, etc., he might have been better. Or worse. He might have ruined something particularly Ruthian.

Is the next great ballplayer, let's call him 'Heisenberg', developing in a way neither old school scouts, or Silver could predict because we've never seen a Great develop in this informational environment?

Maybe its better if the players ignore the geeks?

And Hawk just has Crash Davis' "lesson number one" stuck in his mind-muscle's memory.

#12 fromthemitten

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 09:27 AM

Is the next great ballplayer, let's call him 'Heisenberg', developing in a way neither old school scouts, or Silver could predict because we've never seen a Great develop in this informational environment?

 

With a chemistry set?



#13 Tommy

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 09:58 AM

 

Is the next great ballplayer, let's call him 'Heisenberg'

Why's he gotta be German?  Racist.  


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#14 Stinky Pete

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 10:45 AM

I can appreciate a former player turned color man protecting his own ignorance so thoroughly (but one turned field manager, or coach, or scout must open his mind). It is the player in them. Their ignorance probably helped them as players.

 

Players see the ball, hit the ball. They have to trust their bodies, and often do so by turning off their minds. (I mean, what is a thoughtful reaction to a 6'6" man throwing a hard missle at or near your person at near 100 miles and hour.) Or else, like a pitcher who can't throw to first or a catcher with the yips, things can get ugly.

 

I wonder if kids coming up now buy into sabermetrics? I know they are aware. Young pitchers have always asked their Physics teachers to explain the effect of their own velocity on the velocity of the batted ball, for example.

 

But if a developing player changes his approach based on sabermetrics to change his development trajectory, he might. Perhaps in some unexpected (negative) way. I mean, Babe Ruth ate hot dogs, drank beer, threw the ball and hit the ball. If he had seen research on plate discipline, or studied hundreds of hours of video on his stance, etc., he might have been better. Or worse. He might have ruined something particularly Ruthian.

 

Is the next great ballplayer, let's call him 'Heisenberg', developing in a way neither old school scouts, or Silver could predict because we've never seen a Great develop in this informational environment?

 

Maybe its better if the players ignore the geeks?

 

And Hawk just has Crash Davis'  "lesson number one" stuck in mind-muscle's memory.

I think it could go either way.  It all depends how that player's mind works.  It could be Heisenberg who has his nose in a book as often as his feet are in cleats, or it could be Jesse, so blessed with talent that any alterations could shatter the immense potential.  The next great player will be whomever finds the clearest path, whichever path that may be, to their untapped talent within.



#15 FFP

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 04:27 PM

"With a chemistry set?"

I'm uncertain.
 






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