Jump to content





Bleacher Nation is on Facebook, and you should totally "Like" us:
 


Bleacher Nation is also on Twitter, and you should totally follow us:




Upcoming Calendar Events

There are no forthcoming calendar events

Today's birthdays

No members are celebrating a birthday today

Photo

Vogelbach is faster than Rizzo--WAY faster


  • Please log in to reply
25 replies to this topic

#16 calicubsfan007

calicubsfan007

    The Guy Who Came Back From the Dead

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 540 posts
  • LocationWherever I Am, There I Am

Posted 14 June 2013 - 02:25 PM

 

 

 

 

There is track speed fast, then there is on the field fast.  Jerry Rice didn't wow at the Combine, but he wowed on the field with his speed.  I wouldn't put too much stock on track speed in terms of baseball, unless Vogs is able to be as fast on the field.

But Rice wasn't exactly slow, top end speed is usually something you either have or don't.  You might be able to shave a few tenths of a second off of a 40/60/100 if you are in decent shape and a second or so if you are totally out of shape by training.  Other than that you are either blessed with fast twitch muscles or you aren't.

 

You can shave a lot more then a few tenths by getting into shape. Well, it depends what you mean by geting into shape, if you are going from top end high school talent to a professional athlete, it will probably just be a few tenths of a second. If you lose 40 pounds while gaining muscle mass at the same time, you'll probably drop a lot. Now, I don't know if Vogelbach really did get in a lot better shape, but if he did, he'd probably be significantly faster.

 

Pretty sure we are talking about the same thing.

 

If you run say a 4.7/40 in high school, you aren't going to run a 4 flat no matter how much you work, you have to already be in good condition to run a 4.7.

 

Now if you run a 7 flat because you sat on the couch and watched people run in high school and then decided to join the Army and actually had to get into shape there's a good chance that you might be able to run a 6 flat or sub 6 after you got into shape and actually developed some of the muscles required to run well.

 

I think more in terms of 100 meters. If you run a 14 seconds on a 100, you aren't in track shape, but you aren't that slow. Getting down to a 12 wouldn't be that hard, nor would you be that fast. Now seconds on a 40 is a lot faster then seconds on a 100.

 

Yeah, I think you guys are saying the same thing, just using different wording.



#17 chirogerg1

chirogerg1

    Bleacher Bum

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 95 posts

Posted 16 June 2013 - 10:46 AM

Major League average (50/50) 60 time is generally accepted to be a 6.9. A 7.15 then would be about a 30/30, but if he got down to like a 7.0 that'd be great. It would likely be above average for first baseman. If he could be a 40 run tool, I'm sure he could play passable defense in left as well as first.



#18 Scotti

Scotti

    Bleacher Bum

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 40 posts

Posted 18 June 2013 - 09:58 PM

Major League average (50/50) 60 time is generally accepted to be a 6.9. A 7.15 then would be about a 30/30, but if he got down to like a 7.0 that'd be great. It would likely be above average for first baseman. If he could be a 40 run tool, I'm sure he could play passable defense in left as well as first.


Given that 20 is absolute zero, as it were, for speed and cats like Rizzo (plus the majority of catchers, a good number of 3B, 1B and even some LF) are Easter Egg Rollin' it up there, Vogelbach's 7.15 is a solid 40, IMHO. (Again, Vitters was slower and never considered exceptionally slow--I've seen him get 40).

To clarify, in a world where 50 is 50th percentile, 80 is 99.9th percentile and 20 is 0.1st percentile, 7.15 is south of average but very usable speed for a corner infielder. That said, his arm could not play in left.

#19 Scotti

Scotti

    Bleacher Bum

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 40 posts

Posted 18 June 2013 - 10:28 PM

Flexibility is also a huge factor in Vog's low defensive rating


My primary beef with those who rate Vogelbach is the speed rating. The kid is far closer to average speed than the 20's folks dish out to him. The speed rating is also the primary reason he gets the Future DH tag. To be sure, he looks ugly in the field, but he gets the job done. The assumption is that he's Model T-slow because he's built like a Chunky Bar. This just isn't true (it is, in fact, demonstrably false).

As a fat guy he gets more scrutiny than a fit guy--I'm sure he's used to that. IMHO, an educated fan base should push back on such lazy reporting and give the kid the credit that he deserves. The same laziness had him as a power only guy when he was drafted. Now he gets credit for being a plus hitter for average as well--the speed tag will be harder to overcome but it can be done.

#20 Cubbie Blues

Cubbie Blues

    The Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3,365 posts
  • Twitter:@timhall76
  • LocationBloomington, IN

Posted 19 June 2013 - 06:37 AM

 

Major League average (50/50) 60 time is generally accepted to be a 6.9. A 7.15 then would be about a 30/30, but if he got down to like a 7.0 that'd be great. It would likely be above average for first baseman. If he could be a 40 run tool, I'm sure he could play passable defense in left as well as first.


Given that 20 is absolute zero, as it were, for speed and cats like Rizzo (plus the majority of catchers, a good number of 3B, 1B and even some LF) are Easter Egg Rollin' it up there, Vogelbach's 7.15 is a solid 40, IMHO. (Again, Vitters was slower and never considered exceptionally slow--I've seen him get 40).

To clarify, in a world where 50 is 50th percentile, 80 is 99.9th percentile and 20 is 0.1st percentile, 7.15 is south of average but very usable speed for a corner infielder. That said, his arm could not play in left.

 

Absolute zero is –459.67 degrees F or 0 degrees K or 0 degrees R. :P

 

Speed has nothing to do with an infielders ability. Quickness which translates to range does, but not speed.


"It's not the dress that makes you look fat, it's the fat that makes you look fat." - Al Bundy

 

"Ow" - Dylan Bundy


#21 Scotti

Scotti

    Bleacher Bum

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 40 posts

Posted 19 June 2013 - 12:56 PM

 

 

Major League average (50/50) 60 time is generally accepted to be a 6.9. A 7.15 then would be about a 30/30, but if he got down to like a 7.0 that'd be great. It would likely be above average for first baseman. If he could be a 40 run tool, I'm sure he could play passable defense in left as well as first.


Given that 20 is absolute zero, as it were, for speed and cats like Rizzo (plus the majority of catchers, a good number of 3B, 1B and even some LF) are Easter Egg Rollin' it up there, Vogelbach's 7.15 is a solid 40, IMHO. (Again, Vitters was slower and never considered exceptionally slow--I've seen him get 40).

To clarify, in a world where 50 is 50th percentile, 80 is 99.9th percentile and 20 is 0.1st percentile, 7.15 is south of average but very usable speed for a corner infielder. That said, his arm could not play in left.

 

Absolute zero is –459.67 degrees F or 0 degrees K or 0 degrees R. :P

 

Speed has nothing to do with an infielders ability. Quickness which translates to range does, but not speed.

 

Speed is, even for a catcher, a factor in range (a catcher needs to cover ground on pop ups).  It is, of course, more of a factor for CF than other positions but it is always a factor.  Quickness is very important as well but you couldn't take a slow but quick guy and stuff him in CF and expect excellence.  So quickness and speed go hand-in-hand, to varying degrees, depending on the position--a SS needs more quickness and a 2B needs more speed (for this reason Baez isn't ideal for 2B).  To say that speed has nothing to do with an infielder's ability totally ignores the fact that DLee out ran numerous pop fouls that slower 1B would never have even been near.  A very quick player w/ decent speed could be an incredible defender at SS.  That same guy at 2B could be good but not great--he wouldn't be able to outrun the many slowly hit dribblers to the right side (there are more slowly hit balls to the right side, and more sharply hit balls to the left, because there are 2X as many right-handed hitters--all things equal, a pulled ball is hit more sharply than one hit the other way).

 

All of that said, quickness for C's, 3B, and 1B (in that order) is more important than speed but speed is not negligible.  



#22 wvcubsfan

wvcubsfan

    Bleacher Bum

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 397 posts
  • LocationLittle Rock, AR

Posted 19 June 2013 - 04:01 PM

 

 

Major League average (50/50) 60 time is generally accepted to be a 6.9. A 7.15 then would be about a 30/30, but if he got down to like a 7.0 that'd be great. It would likely be above average for first baseman. If he could be a 40 run tool, I'm sure he could play passable defense in left as well as first.


Given that 20 is absolute zero, as it were, for speed and cats like Rizzo (plus the majority of catchers, a good number of 3B, 1B and even some LF) are Easter Egg Rollin' it up there, Vogelbach's 7.15 is a solid 40, IMHO. (Again, Vitters was slower and never considered exceptionally slow--I've seen him get 40).

To clarify, in a world where 50 is 50th percentile, 80 is 99.9th percentile and 20 is 0.1st percentile, 7.15 is south of average but very usable speed for a corner infielder. That said, his arm could not play in left.

 

Absolute zero is –459.67 degrees F or 0 degrees K or 0 degrees R. :P

 

Speed has nothing to do with an infielders ability. Quickness which translates to range does, but not speed.

 

Well to be fair at absolute zero every thing is traveling at absolutely zero on any scale.



#23 calicubsfan007

calicubsfan007

    The Guy Who Came Back From the Dead

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 540 posts
  • LocationWherever I Am, There I Am

Posted 20 June 2013 - 05:43 AM

Range is the important factor.



#24 fromthemitten

fromthemitten

    sleeps in too late to answer the calendar trivia

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,470 posts
  • Twitter:fromthemitten
  • Locationin a van down by the river

Posted 24 June 2013 - 07:34 PM

 


To be sure, he looks ugly in the field, but he gets the job done.

 

 

Sure, if you consider 8 errors in 50 games to be considered "getting the job done"



#25 Scotti

Scotti

    Bleacher Bum

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 40 posts

Posted 25 June 2013 - 11:31 PM

 

 


To be sure, he looks ugly in the field, but he gets the job done.

 

 

Sure, if you consider 8 errors in 50 games to be considered "getting the job done"

 

Um, yeah, errors in the low minors tells you less than a birthday card from a second cousin twice removed.  Especially from such a small sample size.  

 

Through his minor league career, a certain "Gold Glove caliber" Cub first baseman had a .989 fielding percentage (and 16 errors as a 20-y/o in A ball). A certain "getting the job done" first baseman happens to have a .987 fielding percentage through his minor league career (8 errors thus far in this year's small sample size as a-- ta da--20-y/o in A ball). 

 

This tells us what?  Don't make assumptions based on error totals for cats in the low minors. Use your eyes.  Vogelbach moves well around the bag. He just doesn't look pretty doing it.  Fortunately, I don't ask my Beauty Queens to be Rocket Scientists and I don't require my baseball players to look sexy--just get the job done.  



#26 Scotti

Scotti

    Bleacher Bum

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 40 posts

Posted 26 June 2013 - 12:52 AM

Range is the important factor.

Not in a 1B.  I wan't my 1B to be able to handle throws (in the dirt, off the bag, etc.) and THEN I start caring about range.  And then Sexy...  






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Bleacher Nation is not affiliated in any way with Major League Baseball or the Chicago National League Ballclub (that's the Cubs).