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Captain Hindsight makes me sad


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#16 King Jeff

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 11:46 AM

We should probably wait a while before lamenting the failure to sign Darvish.  He's already on the DL, has a history of high usage, and plays for a manager that puts more pitchers on the DL than Dusty Baker.  Sure he's great now, but wait to see where he's at in a year or two, or if his arm is still attached. 

 

Besides that, all three of these guys signed with three different teams.  You can lament over not getting one of them and even make a case that they were "outbid", but nobody got all three, and from what I can tell, the Cubs were the only team that was heavily in on all three to the end.  I know that there is no "a for effort", but it's not like the Cubs didn't do what they thought needed to be done to get all three of these guys.



#17 fromthemitten

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:51 PM

Keep in mind that many people thought Soler is better than Puig.  I'm still very high on him considering how well he played with a bum knee.  That could have been the only thing that kept him out of the majors this season.



#18 hansman1982

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:02 PM

We should probably wait a while before lamenting the failure to sign Darvish.  He's already on the DL, has a history of high usage, and plays for a manager that puts more pitchers on the DL than Dusty Baker.  Sure he's great now, but wait to see where he's at in a year or two, or if his arm is still attached. 

 

Besides that, all three of these guys signed with three different teams.  You can lament over not getting one of them and even make a case that they were "outbid", but nobody got all three, and from what I can tell, the Cubs were the only team that was heavily in on all three to the end.  I know that there is no "a for effort", but it's not like the Cubs didn't do what they thought needed to be done to get all three of these guys.

 

This, Japanese pitchers don't have a great track record beyond year 2.  The benefit of having him would have been the difference between Volstad and him last year, though.  This year, Jed and Theo have done a much better job filling that #5 slot.



#19 Cerambam

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:54 PM

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OKAY, I GET IT GUYS.



#20 wvcubsfan

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 02:08 PM

 

We should probably wait a while before lamenting the failure to sign Darvish.  He's already on the DL, has a history of high usage, and plays for a manager that puts more pitchers on the DL than Dusty Baker.  Sure he's great now, but wait to see where he's at in a year or two, or if his arm is still attached. 

 

Besides that, all three of these guys signed with three different teams.  You can lament over not getting one of them and even make a case that they were "outbid", but nobody got all three, and from what I can tell, the Cubs were the only team that was heavily in on all three to the end.  I know that there is no "a for effort", but it's not like the Cubs didn't do what they thought needed to be done to get all three of these guys.

 

This, Japanese pitchers don't have a great track record beyond year 2.  The benefit of having him would have been the difference between Volstad and him last year, though.  This year, Jed and Theo have done a much better job filling that #5 slot.

 

I do think that to compare Darvish to Dice-K when there are only about four things comparable between the two of them (where they came from, the position they play on the baseball field, the dominate arm they throw and write with, and the fact they both have 4+ pitches) is short sided at best.

 

Darvish may turn out to battle the injury bug, and he may very well come a few steps down from where he is at right now, but I find it hard to believe that he will be struggling to stay in a team's bullpen in 3 years.



#21 Cerambam

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 02:29 PM

 

 

We should probably wait a while before lamenting the failure to sign Darvish.  He's already on the DL, has a history of high usage, and plays for a manager that puts more pitchers on the DL than Dusty Baker.  Sure he's great now, but wait to see where he's at in a year or two, or if his arm is still attached. 

 

Besides that, all three of these guys signed with three different teams.  You can lament over not getting one of them and even make a case that they were "outbid", but nobody got all three, and from what I can tell, the Cubs were the only team that was heavily in on all three to the end.  I know that there is no "a for effort", but it's not like the Cubs didn't do what they thought needed to be done to get all three of these guys.

 

This, Japanese pitchers don't have a great track record beyond year 2.  The benefit of having him would have been the difference between Volstad and him last year, though.  This year, Jed and Theo have done a much better job filling that #5 slot.

 

I do think that to compare Darvish to Dice-K when there are only about four things comparable between the two of them (where they came from, the position they play on the baseball field, the dominate arm they throw and write with, and the fact they both have 4+ pitches) is short sided at best.

 

Darvish may turn out to battle the injury bug, and he may very well come a few steps down from where he is at right now, but I find it hard to believe that he will be struggling to stay in a team's bullpen in 3 years.

 

Well to be fair its not that everyone is comparing them because of their race. It's their career and league history.

 

Japan has shorter seasons that demand less from their pitchers. Therefore, its fair to compare two pitchers that were dominate in the same short season league, dominate early on in their MLB career, and then faltered after 2 (longer) seasons.



#22 wvcubsfan

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 02:54 PM

 

 

 

We should probably wait a while before lamenting the failure to sign Darvish.  He's already on the DL, has a history of high usage, and plays for a manager that puts more pitchers on the DL than Dusty Baker.  Sure he's great now, but wait to see where he's at in a year or two, or if his arm is still attached. 

 

Besides that, all three of these guys signed with three different teams.  You can lament over not getting one of them and even make a case that they were "outbid", but nobody got all three, and from what I can tell, the Cubs were the only team that was heavily in on all three to the end.  I know that there is no "a for effort", but it's not like the Cubs didn't do what they thought needed to be done to get all three of these guys.

 

This, Japanese pitchers don't have a great track record beyond year 2.  The benefit of having him would have been the difference between Volstad and him last year, though.  This year, Jed and Theo have done a much better job filling that #5 slot.

 

I do think that to compare Darvish to Dice-K when there are only about four things comparable between the two of them (where they came from, the position they play on the baseball field, the dominate arm they throw and write with, and the fact they both have 4+ pitches) is short sided at best.

 

Darvish may turn out to battle the injury bug, and he may very well come a few steps down from where he is at right now, but I find it hard to believe that he will be struggling to stay in a team's bullpen in 3 years.

 

Well to be fair its not that everyone is comparing them because of their race. It's their career and league history.

 

Japan has shorter seasons that demand less from their pitchers. Therefore, its fair to compare two pitchers that were dominate in the same short season league, dominate early on in their MLB career, and then faltered after 2 (longer) seasons.

 

I understand this, but what is not being considered is one has the frame of a "typical" starting pitcher and the other doesn't.  One has fastball velocity normally attached to potential starting pitchers and the other doesn't.



#23 King Jeff

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 03:55 PM

 

 

 

 

We should probably wait a while before lamenting the failure to sign Darvish.  He's already on the DL, has a history of high usage, and plays for a manager that puts more pitchers on the DL than Dusty Baker.  Sure he's great now, but wait to see where he's at in a year or two, or if his arm is still attached. 

 

Besides that, all three of these guys signed with three different teams.  You can lament over not getting one of them and even make a case that they were "outbid", but nobody got all three, and from what I can tell, the Cubs were the only team that was heavily in on all three to the end.  I know that there is no "a for effort", but it's not like the Cubs didn't do what they thought needed to be done to get all three of these guys.

 

This, Japanese pitchers don't have a great track record beyond year 2.  The benefit of having him would have been the difference between Volstad and him last year, though.  This year, Jed and Theo have done a much better job filling that #5 slot.

 

I do think that to compare Darvish to Dice-K when there are only about four things comparable between the two of them (where they came from, the position they play on the baseball field, the dominate arm they throw and write with, and the fact they both have 4+ pitches) is short sided at best.

 

Darvish may turn out to battle the injury bug, and he may very well come a few steps down from where he is at right now, but I find it hard to believe that he will be struggling to stay in a team's bullpen in 3 years.

 

Well to be fair its not that everyone is comparing them because of their race. It's their career and league history.

 

Japan has shorter seasons that demand less from their pitchers. Therefore, its fair to compare two pitchers that were dominate in the same short season league, dominate early on in their MLB career, and then faltered after 2 (longer) seasons.

 

I understand this, but what is not being considered is one has the frame of a "typical" starting pitcher and the other doesn't.  One has fastball velocity normally attached to potential starting pitchers and the other doesn't.

 

Sorry, I didn't point out that I've been watching and tracking Darvish for a few years.  He pitched in the shorter season in Japan, but he hit 150+  pitches in games several times in NPB, and was heavily used during his high school years.  I was leery of giving him a 100 million dollar deal before the bidding opened.  It's not that about where they are from or what race they are, it's that they came up through the same system, meaning that they were ridden heavily throughout their youth and high school careers.  Those guys pitch almost year round over there.   From the admittedly small sample that we have of guys coming up in Japan and then jumping to MLB, there is very little history of sustained health.  All I'm saying is that this is still a relative unknown, and there isn't much track record to suggest that he's immune to the long term high usage that he's been through. 



#24 wvcubsfan

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 04:02 PM

Sorry, really it's just a pet peeve when I read generic comparisons based on things that aren't relevant.  It would be like saying that the next pitcher drafted that was raised in central Arkansas will be very good because of Cliff Lee, AJ Burnett, and Travis Wood.



#25 King Jeff

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 04:12 PM

Sorry, really it's just a pet peeve when I read generic comparisons based on things that aren't relevant.  It would be like saying that the next pitcher drafted that was raised in central Arkansas will be very good because of Cliff Lee, AJ Burnett, and Travis Wood.

Yeah, if central Arkansas was notorious for overusing their pitchers, that would be a fair comparison.  A pet peeve of mine is when someone disregards everything in the post they are responding to and calls them irrelevant, then makes a sweeping generalization trying to talk down to the person they are responding to. 

 

NPB plays a 144 games schedule, plus playoffs. Yu Darvish averaged almost 130 pitches per start, not to mention his bullpen sessions, which are typically 200 or more pitches per.  Which still doesn't mention the year-round nature of amateur ball that he was subjected to.  If these aren't relevant facts, then I apologize. 



#26 wvcubsfan

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 04:32 PM

 

Sorry, really it's just a pet peeve when I read generic comparisons based on things that aren't relevant.  It would be like saying that the next pitcher drafted that was raised in central Arkansas will be very good because of Cliff Lee, AJ Burnett, and Travis Wood.

Yeah, if central Arkansas was notorious for overusing their pitchers, that would be a fair comparison.  A pet peeve of mine is when someone disregards everything in the post they are responding to and calls them irrelevant, then makes a sweeping generalization trying to talk down to the person they are responding to. 

 

NPB plays a 144 games schedule, plus playoffs. Yu Darvish averaged almost 130 pitches per start, not to mention his bullpen sessions, which are typically 200 or more pitches per.  Which still doesn't mention the year-round nature of amateur ball that he was subjected to.  If these aren't relevant facts, then I apologize. 

 

Like I said, Sorry.  I was mainly responded to Hansman's comment "This, Japanese pitchers don't have a great track record beyond year 2." more than anything.

 

Actually my point was even more sarcastic than that; more like there's something in the water type of crap.



#27 willis

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 07:15 PM

As best we can tell, the Cubs tried for Darvish.  That ridiculous single bid, blind auction process sunk 'em.

 
 
This.  I think Kim Jong IL invented the whole ridiculous posting process.


I stumbled upon Team America just the other day on some random movie channel. His character in that movie is pure cinema gold.

#28 Adam Pro

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 08:05 PM

I also find it highly likely that the Cubs will try to sign Ellsbury this offseason and I believe they will likely get him. 

I have also been intrigued by him as a free agent signing in the offseason. He would give the Cubs a legitimate leadoff hitter with great SB ability as well. Assuming one or more of Soriano/Dejesus/Sweeney are not on the club next year, an addition to the OF (especially CF) will be welcomed.

 

Have you seen anything of note that would indicate the Cubs will pursue him? Or is that just a hunch you have?



#29 Luke

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 08:19 PM

the next pitcher drafted that was raised in central Arkansas will be very good because of Cliff Lee, AJ Burnett, and Travis Wood.

 

You heard it here first, folks!  wvcubsfan confirms that Hayden Simpson is a bone fide ace and guaranteed for the Hall of Fame.  Get your induction tickets now!



#30 calicubsfan007

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 10:38 PM

 

the next pitcher drafted that was raised in central Arkansas will be very good because of Cliff Lee, AJ Burnett, and Travis Wood.

 

You heard it here first, folks!  wvcubsfan confirms that Hayden Simpson is a bone fide ace and guaranteed for the Hall of Fame.  Get your induction tickets now!

 

Sense a hint of sarcasm there.  Just a very very very slight hint.






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