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So, positives?


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132 replies to this topic

#46 mountsalami

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 09:16 PM

 

 

Just walk away guys someone is fishing with tiresome bait.

 
Sorry Goat. I just don't buy into what's happening to our team. I have a right not to like it.
He wasnt saying that you don't. But, just complaining and not offering solutions or what you think we should have done doesn't add anything.

 

We are watching what last years decisions are doing on the field. We are horrible and in last place. So I can imagine that most of us would have been able to improve the team without breaking the bank. Like I said I'm not going to play revisionist historian about what I would have done last offseason. I would however share my thoughts and hear everyone else's on what their ideas are for the coming one.

 

I think that's fair.



#47 Spencer

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 09:21 PM

Well. This has quickly disintegrated from what I hoped would be a positive conversation (hence the title), into a crap show.



#48 mountsalami

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 09:22 PM

 

 

 

Just walk away guys someone is fishing with tiresome bait.

 
Sorry Goat. I just don't buy into what's happening to our team. I have a right not to like it.
He wasnt saying that you don't. But, just complaining and not offering solutions or what you think we should have done doesn't add anything.
^^^THIS^^^ just complaining and continuing to complain instead of engage in discourse and support claims with facts is quite trollish.

 

I guess I don't find it trollish that Cubs fans are happy about watching losing baseball and believeing that Epstein may possibly bring sustained success in this manner. It can go both ways. The only facts I've seen are some cherry picked metrics that are proven to be more innaccurate than the basic mathematics applied to the simple statistics that are accurate and have been used for over a hundred years.



#49 Cubbie Blues

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 09:27 PM

Just walk away guys someone is fishing with tiresome bait.

 
Sorry Goat. I just don't buy into what's happening to our team. I have a right not to like it.
He wasnt saying that you don't. But, just complaining and not offering solutions or what you think we should have done doesn't add anything.
^^^THIS^^^ just complaining and continuing to complain instead of engage in discourse and support claims with facts is quite trollish.
I guess I don't find it trollish that Cubs fans are happy about watching losing baseball and believeing that Epstein may possibly bring sustained success in this manner. It can go both ways. The only facts I've seen are some cherry picked metrics that are proven to be more innaccurate than the basic mathematics applied to the simple statistics that are accurate and have been used for over a hundred years.
Link please for where I can find these metrics being bunk. Also, I don't cherry pick. I don't agree with everything Theo has done, it the good far outweighs the bad.

"It's not the dress that makes you look fat, it's the fat that makes you look fat." - Al Bundy

 

"Ow" - Dylan Bundy


#50 Spencer

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 09:30 PM

 

 

 

 

Just walk away guys someone is fishing with tiresome bait.

 
Sorry Goat. I just don't buy into what's happening to our team. I have a right not to like it.
He wasnt saying that you don't. But, just complaining and not offering solutions or what you think we should have done doesn't add anything.
^^^THIS^^^ just complaining and continuing to complain instead of engage in discourse and support claims with facts is quite trollish.

 

I guess I don't find it trollish that Cubs fans are happy about watching losing baseball and believeing that Epstein may possibly bring sustained success in this manner. It can go both ways. The only facts I've seen are some cherry picked metrics that are proven to be more innaccurate than the basic mathematics applied to the simple statistics that are accurate and have been used for over a hundred years.

 

 

I'll readily admit that I've become a bit frustrated with the quality of play on the field the last few weeks..but I still support the overall plan.  No one likes watching losers; even people that believe in what Epstein and Hoyer are doing.  I don't think anyone would dispute your position about losing or say that they are happy about watching losing baseball.

 

What people will dispute is the pejorative way you expressed your opinion about the lack of any positives that have come out of the 2013 ball club at the major league level.  That just makes you sound like a curmudgeon who refuses to acknowledge any scintilla of success.  Just because the Cubs are in last place doesn't mean there haven't been any positives about this season.  Just saying something like "there are no positives this team is completely dreadful in every way" doesn't really do much for me.  I think there are positives about this club, but I am also exceedingly frustrated that we have about 7-10 AAAA players on this roster (see tonight's lineup that somehow scored 11 runs).



#51 Cubbie Blues

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 09:32 PM

Salami, I'm going to bed, so you have a while to think about why you have the opinions you do and how to express them productively.

"It's not the dress that makes you look fat, it's the fat that makes you look fat." - Al Bundy

 

"Ow" - Dylan Bundy


#52 mountsalami

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 09:33 PM

 

 

 

 

 

Just walk away guys someone is fishing with tiresome bait.

 
Sorry Goat. I just don't buy into what's happening to our team. I have a right not to like it.
He wasnt saying that you don't. But, just complaining and not offering solutions or what you think we should have done doesn't add anything.
^^^THIS^^^ just complaining and continuing to complain instead of engage in discourse and support claims with facts is quite trollish.
I guess I don't find it trollish that Cubs fans are happy about watching losing baseball and believeing that Epstein may possibly bring sustained success in this manner. It can go both ways. The only facts I've seen are some cherry picked metrics that are proven to be more innaccurate than the basic mathematics applied to the simple statistics that are accurate and have been used for over a hundred years.
Link please for where I can find these metrics being bunk. Also, I don't cherry pick. I don't agree with everything Theo has done, it the good far outweighs the bad.

 

If you know these metrics so well and are so positively sure of their accuracy, I surely wouldn't have to do that for you. If you think you know them as well as you do then you'd know the flaws. Do your own homework.

 

I believe the bad outweighs the good. If that makes me a troll then I'll stop looking at the won/loss record and join in on the spankfest.



#53 Cubbie Blues

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 09:36 PM

Just walk away guys someone is fishing with tiresome bait.

 
Sorry Goat. I just don't buy into what's happening to our team. I have a right not to like it.
He wasnt saying that you don't. But, just complaining and not offering solutions or what you think we should have done doesn't add anything.
^^^THIS^^^ just complaining and continuing to complain instead of engage in discourse and support claims with facts is quite trollish.
I guess I don't find it trollish that Cubs fans are happy about watching losing baseball and believeing that Epstein may possibly bring sustained success in this manner. It can go both ways. The only facts I've seen are some cherry picked metrics that are proven to be more innaccurate than the basic mathematics applied to the simple statistics that are accurate and have been used for over a hundred years.
Link please for where I can find these metrics being bunk. Also, I don't cherry pick. I don't agree with everything Theo has done, it the good far outweighs the bad.
If you know these metrics so well and are so positively sure of their accuracy, I surely wouldn't have to do that for you. If you think you know them as well as you do then you'd know the flaws. Do your own homework.
 
I believe the bad outweighs the good. If that makes me a troll then I'll stop looking at the won/loss record and join in on the spankfest.
You are the one with the claim and therefor have the burden of proof laid upon you. Win/loss isn't everything during a rebuild. Progress is the important part.

"It's not the dress that makes you look fat, it's the fat that makes you look fat." - Al Bundy

 

"Ow" - Dylan Bundy


#54 mountsalami

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 09:49 PM

 

 

 

 

 

Just walk away guys someone is fishing with tiresome bait.

 
Sorry Goat. I just don't buy into what's happening to our team. I have a right not to like it.
He wasnt saying that you don't. But, just complaining and not offering solutions or what you think we should have done doesn't add anything.
^^^THIS^^^ just complaining and continuing to complain instead of engage in discourse and support claims with facts is quite trollish.

 

I guess I don't find it trollish that Cubs fans are happy about watching losing baseball and believeing that Epstein may possibly bring sustained success in this manner. It can go both ways. The only facts I've seen are some cherry picked metrics that are proven to be more innaccurate than the basic mathematics applied to the simple statistics that are accurate and have been used for over a hundred years.

 

 

I'll readily admit that I've become a bit frustrated with the quality of play on the field the last few weeks..but I still support the overall plan.  No one likes watching losers; even people that believe in what Epstein and Hoyer are doing.  I don't think anyone would dispute your position about losing or say that they are happy about watching losing baseball.

 

What people will dispute is the pejorative way you expressed your opinion about the lack of any positives that have come out of the 2013 ball club at the major league level.  That just makes you sound like a curmudgeon who refuses to acknowledge any scintilla of success.  Just because the Cubs are in last place doesn't mean there haven't been any positives about this season.  Just saying something like "there are no positives this team is completely dreadful in every way" doesn't really do much for me.  I think there are positives about this club, but I am also exceedingly frustrated that we have about 7-10 AAAA players on this roster (see tonight's lineup that somehow scored 11 runs).

 

The major league team's success is measured by wins and losses. Nothing else. I did not make the rules. This team is bad and was built to be bad for this season. We as fans receive no dividend checks for wins per dollar spent. Wins mean everything. Wasting seasons does absolutely nothing. The Cubs are not poor and are not using their biggest asset which is money. I am not suggesting at all to spend wildly. But let's place a respectable product on the field.

 

They could outspend every team in the division and probably win it if they wanted to. Tommy Nickles only cares about maximizing profits currently, which us as fans should never care about.



#55 mountsalami

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 09:51 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just walk away guys someone is fishing with tiresome bait.

 
Sorry Goat. I just don't buy into what's happening to our team. I have a right not to like it.
He wasnt saying that you don't. But, just complaining and not offering solutions or what you think we should have done doesn't add anything.
^^^THIS^^^ just complaining and continuing to complain instead of engage in discourse and support claims with facts is quite trollish.
I guess I don't find it trollish that Cubs fans are happy about watching losing baseball and believeing that Epstein may possibly bring sustained success in this manner. It can go both ways. The only facts I've seen are some cherry picked metrics that are proven to be more innaccurate than the basic mathematics applied to the simple statistics that are accurate and have been used for over a hundred years.
Link please for where I can find these metrics being bunk. Also, I don't cherry pick. I don't agree with everything Theo has done, it the good far outweighs the bad.
If you know these metrics so well and are so positively sure of their accuracy, I surely wouldn't have to do that for you. If you think you know them as well as you do then you'd know the flaws. Do your own homework.
 
I believe the bad outweighs the good. If that makes me a troll then I'll stop looking at the won/loss record and join in on the spankfest.
You are the one with the claim and therefor have the burden of proof laid upon you. Win/loss isn't everything during a rebuild. Progress is the important part.

 

Yes it is everything. I see no progress from the Cubs that the other teams are not doing themselves when it comes to prospects, drafting, and the farm in general.



#56 mountsalami

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 10:00 PM

Win/loss isn't everything during a rebuild

 

 

The Cubs are a large market team charging some of the highest ticket prices in baseball. They should NOT be rebuilding but reloading.

 

I didn't see the Red Sox put their tail between their legs and run away. They re-loaded.



#57 Cubbie Blues

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 06:10 AM

The Red Sox were in a completely different situation than the Cubs were. When Theo et al came over the cupboards were almost completely bare. The Red Sox on the other hand were in prime position to make a run. They only needed a couple of complimentary pieces to bolster their team. For us to throw money just to throw money around would have put us right back into the same boat we just came out of. Theo came in and has freed up most of the money going to big contracts and locked up Rizzo and Castro.

 

Nice job on moving the goal posts by the way. I still haven't heard what you would do differently or who we should have signed. You say you don't want to play revisionist history, but then claim that they should have signed other players. You can't have it both ways; complaining and at the same time not saying who they should have signed. It's a straw man.


"It's not the dress that makes you look fat, it's the fat that makes you look fat." - Al Bundy

 

"Ow" - Dylan Bundy


#58 mountsalami

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 04:57 PM

The Red Sox were in a completely different situation than the Cubs were. When Theo et al came over the cupboards were almost completely bare. The Red Sox on the other hand were in prime position to make a run. They only needed a couple of complimentary pieces to bolster their team. For us to throw money just to throw money around would have put us right back into the same boat we just came out of. Theo came in and has freed up most of the money going to big contracts and locked up Rizzo and Castro.

 

Nice job on moving the goal posts by the way. I still haven't heard what you would do differently or who we should have signed. You say you don't want to play revisionist history, but then claim that they should have signed other players. You can't have it both ways; complaining and at the same time not saying who they should have signed. It's a straw man.

The Red Sox went out and got more than a couple of "complimentary" pieces.  

 

Goal posts were not moved. Just providing an example of a team simply not willing to give up and made an effort at winning. 

 

It appears that may be too difficult for you to comprehend. 



#59 Cubbie Blues

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 06:07 AM

 

The Red Sox were in a completely different situation than the Cubs were. When Theo et al came over the cupboards were almost completely bare. The Red Sox on the other hand were in prime position to make a run. They only needed a couple of complimentary pieces to bolster their team. For us to throw money just to throw money around would have put us right back into the same boat we just came out of. Theo came in and has freed up most of the money going to big contracts and locked up Rizzo and Castro.

 

Nice job on moving the goal posts by the way. I still haven't heard what you would do differently or who we should have signed. You say you don't want to play revisionist history, but then claim that they should have signed other players. You can't have it both ways; complaining and at the same time not saying who they should have signed. It's a straw man.

The Red Sox went out and got more than a couple of "complimentary" pieces.  

 

Goal posts were not moved. Just providing an example of a team simply not willing to give up and made an effort at winning. 

 

It appears that may be too difficult for you to comprehend. 

And there it is. If you can't prove your side of the argument go to the lowest common denominator and insult the other's intelligence. Meanwhile you haven't shown what moves the FO should have made that they didn't or what moves they should make going forward.

 

FA pickups in 2003 off season: Jason Shiell (waivers), Brandon Lyon (waivers), Ryan Rupe (waivers), Damian Jackson, Chad Fox, Ramiro Mendoza, Andy Abad, Mike Timlin, Bill Mueller, Earl Snyder (waivers), David Ortiz, Hector Almonte, Bronson Arroyo (waivers), Kevin Millar, Robert Person, Lou Collier

 

FA pickups in 2004 off season: Jeff Bailey, Adam Hyzdu, Bobby Jones, Mark Malaska (waivers), Lenny DiNardo (Rule 5), Pokey Reese, Keith Foulke, Brian Daubach, Terry Shumpert, Ellis Burks, Tony Womack, Frank Castillo, George Lombard, Joe Nelson

 

FA pickups in 2005 off season: Billy Traber (waivers), Kris Wilson, Matt Mantei, Adam Stern (Rule 5), John Halama, David Wells, Edgar Renteria, Matt Clement, Wade Miller, Geremi Gonzalez, Roberto Petagine

 

​Go ahead and show me which of those pieces were more than complementary besides Ortiz.


"It's not the dress that makes you look fat, it's the fat that makes you look fat." - Al Bundy

 

"Ow" - Dylan Bundy


#60 patg006

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 10:37 AM

Its been a tough year, so positives are tough to really talk about on the major league club.  To please to topic, I'll start with the small things.

 

Nate Scheirholtz.  Gotta be honest, thought this guy was a bottom feeding, lifetime bench player at best.  I'll call him a nice surprise.

 

Kevin Gregg's hot streak.  Now he looks shitty, but his 15+ great appearances is something to see in a positive light on a likely 95-100 loss team.

 

Soriano--oh wait...

 

Junior Lake's little run.  Cooled off then picked up again the other day.

 

Sadly that's about it.  I thought about Travis Wood, but he's been so average lately.  Overall starting pitching?  I guess that can be a positive.

 

Otherwise, I agree with Salami regarding the current direction of the team.  I have absolutely ZERO problem with restocking the farm system and building a nice little core there.  I have a gigantic problem with the 3rd highest revenue generating team intentionally tanking seasons for the sake of putting all the eggs in the farm system basket--and the McDonalds and Hotel-to-be.

 

I get a lot of fans are excited about the farm players like Baez, Bryant, Soler, Pierce, Almora, CJ Edwards, Vogelbomb, etc.; I am for the ones who make it and stick around. But we all gotta remember some things here.  Not every prospect makes it, in fact we should consider ourselves lucky if 2-3 of these guys make it.  Hello--Kansas City Royals with Alex Gordon, Mike Moustakis, Luke Hoechevar, Billy Butler, Eric Hosmer, Mike Montgomery, and right now, looks like SS prospect Christian Colon is about to join them.  Need more examples?  I'll be happy to show it.

 

What would I have done?  Well--there's no guarantee it'd be a playoff team, but I would never have traded Cashner for Rizzo, signed Prince Fielder, CJ Wilson, and Nick Swisher for starters.  

 

Its easy to play revisionist historian here, but I sincerely dont give a shit if the Daytona Cubs win the championship, because that banner wont fly in Wrigley.  I want to see the team now win.  

 

I understand the building process, I just dont like it because I know the team will lose and understand that prospects are essentially lottery tickets.  When you win, you win big.  But you're going to lose a lot more than you win with prospects.  My highest hopes are for Baez, Bryant, Pierce Johnson and CJ Edwards......but even then I'm half-empty until I see them in the bigs.






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